In this exercise, we will assume that the former Browns head coach had something to do with the way Brandon Weeden performed in during the 2012 season. After all, I hear it all the time that it was the coach that couldn’t use Weeden’s talents the way they should have been used. Then if we use the coach excuse the way so many Weeden fans do, we should also use the same excuse for Colt McCoy during the 2011 season. After all, McCoy did get the same head coach calling the plays for him as Weeden had last season.

So I have decided to make a comparison to both Weeden’s and McCoy’s college careers to show the Weeden fans that Colt McCoy still out performed Brandon Weeden when it comes to playing quarterback. First off McCoy was the winning-est college quarterback of all time. Weeden didn’t win as many game as McCoy did. Secondly, McCoy threw 112 touchdowns in his college career Weeden only threw 75. McCoy completed 1157 of the 1645 passes he threw for a average quarterback rating of 70.3 for the years he played in college. Brandon Weeden completed 766 of the 1102 passes he threw for a rating of 69.5, advantage in the Q.B. Rating Colt McCoy.

Colt McCoy had a year when he threw for a 76.7 Q.B. rating, the highest rating Weeden ever had in college was 72.3 that came in his senior year. Again advantage Colt McCoy. The lowest quarterback rating Weeden ever had was a 33.3 and the lowest rating McCoy ever had in College was 65.1. Again Advantage Colt McCoy. In Colts worse year in collage he still had a quarterback rating of almost twice as much as Weeden’s worse year.

Colt McCoy threw for 13,253 yards in college and Brandon Weeden threw for 9.260 yards. Again advantage Colt McCoy. In the 4 years Weeden played in college his average yards per completion was 8.4 yards. McCoy’s average completions was 8.1 yards. Advantage Weeden of only .3 yards per completion. So much for the big strong-arm. Both McCoy and Weeden played their college careers in the big 12, so for those of you who would throw up the fact  McCoy played in the big 12 and they don’t play defense there, remember Weeden did too.

Now lets take a look at the rushing stats for Weeden and McCoy. Brandon Weeden rushed the ball 39 times in college for minus 150 yards. Yes you read that right Weeden lost 150 yards rushing the ball in his 4 year college career. McCoy rushed the ball in college 447 times for 1,571 yards and 20 touchdowns. Weeden had 1 rushing touchdown in his 4 year college career. Weeden had an average of minus 3.8 yards per carry in his 4 year collage career. McCoy had an average of 3.5 yards per carry and scored 19 more rushing touchdowns than Weeden did. Again Advantage Colt McCoy.

McCoy scored 122 points in College and Weeden scored 8. Again advantage Colt McCoy. If you look at these stats you will see in almost every category Colt McCoy out-performed Brandon Weeden in College. If you think about it, you have to ask yourselves why in the hell would the Cleveland Browns ever waste a first round draft pick on a guy who couldn’t out perform the guy they already had.

Lets take a look at the Awards and Honors Colt McCoy received in College;

2008 Consensus All-America
2008 Walter Camp Player of the Year Award
2009 Big 12 Offensive Player of the Year
2009 Consensus All-America
2009 Davey O’Brien Award
2009 Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award
2009 Manning Award
2009 Maxwell Award
2009 Walter Camp Player of the Year Award

Here is the list of Brandon Weeden Awards and Honors;



Now lets have a look at the Heisman Voting Colt McCoy received;

2008 1604 Points (2nd)
2009 1145 Points (3rd)

Brandon Weeden Heisman Voting;


AGAIN ADVANTAGE COLT McCoy………. Nuff said…….


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Readers Comments (140)

  1. Bob

    Big breakdown LG. Must have taken a while to do.

    RB & TB2 & all name calling LG haters, you are on the clock. Go…….

    • LG

      Well Bob, this post is based on facts. You can see McCoy outperformed Weeden in College and he could probably outperform him in the NFL given the chance. McCoy has a ton more experience than Weedeen.

      • tigersbrowns2

        mornin’ LG & BOB …

        – keep in mind mcoy started 53 games going 45-8 … while weeden started 30 games going 26-4.

        - mccoy’s winning pct. is .849% & weeden’s is .866% … advantage weeden.

        - mccoy threw 112 td’s for an average of 2.11 per game & weeden threw 75 td’s for an average of 2.5 per game … advantage weeden.

        - mccoy threw 45 int’s for an average of 1.17 per game & weeden threw 27 int’s for an average of 1.11 per game … advantage weeden.

        - and there is no no denying that mccoy played on a much better all-around team at texas … these were some of the best teams in the history of texas football.

        • LG

          Weeden wasn’t good enough to beat out the other guy who couldn’t even become a starter in the NFL…

          • tigerbrowns2

            that’s your reply ?!?!?!

            surely you can do better than that …

          • Tmos

            TB2 got ya. He just made your article look like a joke. You need to research a little more before you write this crap.

          • LG

            Ya think so Timos….I don’t think so there are the numbers. Article tells the truth about Weeden who couldn’t even beat out a guy at OK that can’t even start for a NFL team why should weeden be starter

          • ABrown

            LG, what a great article. It should get everyone’s blood flowing.

            When I read TB2′s comment I was about to mention how Weeden spent 2 years he was eligible to start as a back-up. McCoy started as a red-shirt freshman and beat out Jevan Snead who left Texas to play for Old Miss from the first moment he was eligible. He led his new team to winning seasons and bowl victories, but most important, he was thought to be a 1st round pick until he lost his key left tackle in the first round of the draft and threw too many INTs as a SR.

            McCoy beat out better talent than beat out Weeden.

            And while I love McCoy’s top receiver, Jordan Shipley, he was on the small side and drafted in the 3rd round while Weeden’s go-to guy was drafted in the top 10 players of the first round.

            Blackmon had incredible size and football speed, and no one could beat him in yards after the catch. Even when Weeden’s passes were way over his head, Blackmon elevated almost 4 ft in the air to reel them in — a cross between Calvin Johnson and Anquan Boldin for being able to out muscle the DBs and catch the ball.

            Texas was a great team with a really strong defense, but Oklahoma State had a more talented and complete team on offense. Texas didn’t have a strong running game, and one year McCoy was the leading rusher.

            If anyone wants to argue that Texas had a great offense, it was great because McCoy was the QB. He made the Texas team great.

          • Anonymous

            Tmos, blinded by bias — the blind leading the blind and not defeating any arguments.

        • Bob

          … and when McCoy left Texas, the team went down.

          • ABrown

            like a wounded duck.

        • ABrown

          TigersBrowns2, you can’t have it both ways, denying McCoy’s accomplishment in starting and playing at a high level for 4 years and then penalizing him for having a slight dip in performance at on point or another over those 4 years.

          Let’s make it fair and compare the last 2 years of both quarterbacks and see how they look head to head.

          McCoy won 25 and lost 2 for a winning percentage of .926. Weeden won 23 and lost 3 for a winning percentage of .885. McCoy wins.

          McCoy scored 61 passing TDs and 14 rushing TDs for 75 TDs and only 20 INTs.

          Weeden scored 71 passing TDs and 1 rushing TD for 72 TDs and 26 INTs.

          McCoy has more TDs and fewer INTs.

          Weeden had an efficiency rating of 157.08, but McCoy had a higher rating of 160.05.

          Let’s look at NCAA rankings of performance.

          McCoy ranks first all time for a single season completion percentage of 76.7%. He ranks 2nd in NCAA history for career completion percentage. His career number of 70.33 is only .06 behind the highest percentage of 70.39% by Brennan the Hawaii QB.

          McCoy ranks high in the NCAA in 11 different career categories. His rankings are 1st, 2nd, 6th, 7th,7th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 13th, and 15th.

          Weeden’s highest NCAA career ranking is 5th for completion percentage. He has 5 total high NCAA career rankings of 5th, 6th, 13th, 18th, and 20th.

          Weeden’s highest total TDs for a season was 38. McCoy’s highest was 45 which ranks 6th all time in NCAA single season performances, just ahead of Tim Tebow and Colin Kaepernick.

          McCoy’s total career TD’s of 132 ranks 8th in NCAA history where he is tied with Russell Wilson, and one spot behind Colin Kaepernick.

          Just as McCoy ranks 1st in completion percentage, Wilson ranks first in passer efficiency, and Kaepernick ranks first in total yards. Weeden ranks 5th in completion percentage.

          McCoy comes out ahead of Weeden even in the areas you chose to highlight.

          • tigersbrowns2

            mornin’ ABROWN … i’m not denyin’ mccoy of anything. just trying to show LG that it’s not as lopsided as he makes it to be.

            mccoy played 23 more games than weeden did … so, total passing yards , td’s would’ve been won by a landslide by weeden had he played as many games. heck , he may’ve even challenged his win record based on his better winning percentage than mccoy.

            i still haven’t found where mccoy had a better qb rating for his college career than weeden did.

          • tigersbrowns2

            forget about the qb rating … i see you based it on the 2 years.

            this is all fine & dandy ,and a great post , but my response was to what LG posted in his article. their careers … not a 2 year span comparison.

            so , the numbers in my post DO stand-up.

          • Bob

            Looks like ABrown got you. How many rushing TDs di Weeden have? 1 McCoy? 14 – Like I said a mobile QB is key these days in the NFL.

          • tigersbrowns2

            hi BOB … hope all is well.

            ABROWN didn’t get me … she’s comparing apples to oranges. my original post was based on LG’s article of their careers … not a 2-year spread.

            and as far as the rushing , i posted yesterday that that category was a slam-dunk in favor of mccoy.

        • Anonymous

          There you go again with the McCoy played on a much better all around team — some of the best teams in Texas history.

          The only way the Texas teams were great is because they had a great quarterback.

          Let’s look at All Americans and draft picks.

          During the 2 years that Weeden played, Oklahoma State had 4 All-Americans, just like Texas. OSU had an offensive lineman, a running back, and a 2-time all American wide receiver — a really powerful offense for Weeden.

          Texas also had 4 All-Americans in the last 2 years McCoy was at Texas — McCoy was a 2 time consensus All American like Blackmon, Brian Orackpo in 2008 and Earl Thomas in 2009 were defensive All Americans, and Jordan Shipley was an All American WR on some teams.

          In the draft for the same time, OSU had 4 players drafted, 3 were offensive players, and 2 were drafted in the 1st round.

          In the same time, Texas had 2 defensive players drafted in the 1st round, but no offensive players. During all 4 years McCoy was QB at Texas, none of the players on offense were 1st round picks.

          And while Weeden had All American talent at WR, RB, and O-line around him, here are the leading rushers and wide receivers for McCoy in his Jr And Sr years:

          2008 McCoy was the leading rusher with 561 yards because there wasn’t anyone else who could get it done. The leading receivers were Quan (Cosby undrafted) and Jordan Shipley 3rd round), both over a 1000 yards.

          In 2009, the leading rusher was Tre Newton with 552 yards followed by Cody Johnson (neither were drafted). Shipley was the leading receiver with 1485 yards followed by a committee of bit players.

          Weeden had much better weapons around him than McCoy did.

          • tigersbrowns2

            hi ANONYMOUS … good post.

            whether it’s college football or the nfl , it always has been & always will be a team game.

            sure , some players are better than others , but it still comes down to being a team game.

          • tigersbrowns2

            … one more thing ANONYMOUS … you said weeden had better weapons (offense)around him … i said mccoy played on the better all-round TEAM.

            in your honest opinion , who played on the better all-around TEAM ??

        • Longhorn Mike

          Stats don’t tell the whole story with these QBs, even though both were great in college. Unfortunately, McCoy is fragile and has a penchant for injury. He has trouble keeping on bulk while playing @ 220 LBS. Simply, he has limited physical upside. In addition, McCoy’s shoulder(s) are a liability, as he missed critical games against Kansas State and Alabama. Can he take an NFL beating every week? He’s been nicked up in Cleveland going back to his rookie season. McCoy is a serviceable NFL QB. He’s a steal for a team that needs a savvy, capable back up QB. Colt will excel as someone who can play crucial minutes as a replacement, preferably for a contender.

          • tigersbrowns2

            good post MIKE … and coming from a longhorn yet.

          • Anonymous

            Longhorn Mike, McCoy NEVER missed a start in the 4 years he was the starter for Texas. He was injured in the last quarter of the Kansas State game, but came back and started the next game against A&M — perhaps he shouldn’t have because the Aggies targeted his injury that wasn’t healed and they eventually knocked him out.

            That was during his freshman year and he came back considerably bulked up for his 2nd year and played every regular season game and bowl game for 3 years until he was injured in the National Ch. game.

            That’s not the record of someone who’s “fragile”. He also doesn’t have trouble keeping in condition. He’s a real “gym rat”.

            You say he had trouble with injury with the Browns. Let’s see if there’s any more to this charge than to the idea that he was often injured in college.

            In 2010, he played 8 games when the two QBs ahead of him could only stay healthy for 8 games together. The problem for all three was a high ankle sprain. When 3 QBs in a row go down with the same injury within a few weeks of the season, you think conditioning coach, not that one of the 3 players is injury prone.

            In 2011, McCoy was was leading the Browns inside the Steelers’ 10 for a go ahead TD in the 4th quarter. The Steelers’ Harrison, lived up to his rep as a vicious hitter when he targeted McCoy with an illegal helmet to helmet hit. McCoy was knocked unconscious and came out — for one, maybe two plays — and came right back into the game and finished it.

            That was incredibly bad judgement by Pat Shurmur and he broke league rules, but as far as McCoy is concerned, he’s as tough as they come and most players would have spent the rest of the game in the locker room or in the hospital.

            In 2012, McCoy only played in the 4 quarter of the Denver game. He came in because Weeden was knocked out the first time he was sacked when the Denver defense started to blitz.

            When McCoy came in, he was sacked on the first play, but he didn’t give up. He stayed in and was sacked 3 more times — the equivalent of 256 sacks in a season. I’d say the one who looked fragile was Weeden.

            He figured out a way to defeat the blitz and draw an interference penalty, ran for positive yards and a 15 yard play that was the Browns longest run of the day, completed 9 of the 12 passes he intended to complete, including the only 2 long passes for the Browns (crisp throws to the sidelines in tight coverage), and lead a drive the length of the field to score the Browns’ only TD.

            When he came in the next week, he complained of a shoulder injury that kept him out of the Pittsburgh game. But that’s a mysterious injury that is more likely explained, according to rumor, by the fact that the new management didn’t want to risk McCoy to Shurmur’s bad judgement in another game.

            Injury prone? are you kidding??

            A concussion and a high ankle sprain in an epidemic of high ankle sprains. That doesn’t sound like a lot of problems to me.

            The only thing true in your post is that McCoy is at the very least a very good back up, but his upside is only limited by his opportunity to play the the talent of his coaches.

            McCoy is a tough, heady, gifted athlete who can play very much like Russell Wilson or Joe Montana, for example, not a fragile, injury-prone whimp you describe.

            Longhorn Mike, are you really a Texas Longhorn?

          • Bob

            TB2 – I doubt a true Longhorn would EVER call McCoy fragile if they saw most of his games in college.

      • tigersbrowns2

        … also , mccoy’s career qb rating was 155.00 & weeden’s was 157.7.

        again , avantage weeden …

        • LG

          Where you get that number TB2

          • tigersbrowns2

            … also, bringing up total passing yards (above)is not fair … texas probably ran the ball alot more than osu did.

            but , here are the passing yards per game …
            mccoy – 250.00 yards per game
            weeden – 308.6 yards per game

          • LG

            How about all those rushing yards you boy Weeden had in college….??????

          • tigersbrowns2

            rushing / rushing yards is a slam-dunk for mccoy … not even close.

          • Bob

            The fact that McCoy can rush and Weeden can’t is a big factor in the NFL now, especially after what other QB’s (RG3, Colin, etc… ) did last year and what Tebow did in 2011.

          • LG

            Yes Sir Bob

          • tigersbrowns2

            … some of the best qb’s in football hardly run at all … brady , p.manning, brees & ryan just to name a few …

          • LG

            The NFL is changing and the Run can be of great use….

        • Anonymous

          TB2, you can play the “could have” game, but in fact Weeden couldn’t have played for 4 years because he couldn’t even win the job.

          McCoy played at a consistently high level for twice as long as Weeden.

          And while Weeden had an All American running back, offensive lineman, and 2 time consensus All American wide receiver around him as weapons, McCoy just had one wide receiver who was All American on some teams in his senior year.

          There’s a difference between looking like a great QB because you have great players around you, like Weeden did, and being a great player because you made your team great, like McCoy did.

          • tigersbrowns2

            look … mccoy is one of the greatest college qb’s of all-time … i have no problem saying that.

            the “numbers” in my original post are not “could have” … they are real.

            whether you like it not , weeden had a better winning pct. & a higher career qb rating than mccoy did.

        • Anonymous

          Weeden managed to maintain a pretty good rating both of the years he started as QB, but both of his ratings were in the 150′s. McCoy had two seasons with higher ratings, one in the 160′s and one in the 170′s.

          Overall both have good career ratings that are very close to being the same.

          But McCoy’s is the more impressive because it covers twice as many seasons — the longer the time, the harder it is to maintain a high level of excellence.

    • Tom Wynne

      Tommie Frazier, Tim Tebow and VINCE YOUNG(better Texas QB than Colt)…solid proof that NCAA talent does not necessarily carry over to the pors. Where are you Gino Toretta? I’ll stick with Weeden over Colt every day and TWICE on Sunday!

      • Anonymous

        McCoy beat Young’s performance at Texas, except for getting to finish the National Championship game, and is ahead of him in NCAA performance categories. And at Texas, while the fans love all the great players, McCoy pretty much made fans forget about Young because McCoy is the more complete quarterback.

        Tom, Young took his team to the play offs and was named All Pro in his rookie season. His only real problem in the pros was just like Weeden’s, he didn’t work hard to learn the play book and didn’t like studying film — essentially didn’t love the mental side of the game.

        But where Weeden was next to last in the league last year in deep passing (Pro Football Focus Signature Stat), Young led the league in the same category.

  2. danage

    You leftout that Mcoy had twice as many college starts so your stat comparison is way off!! With 2 more years Mcoy only threw for 4,000 more yards! nuff said!!!!!!

    • LG

      The stats are the stats, make all the excuses you want. Weeden wasn’t good enough to beat out the guy that couldn’t even start in the NFL and has been on at least 3 teams in the NFL never starting once I believe…..What does that tell you about Weeden….

      • ABrown

        Very true, LG. Weeden couldn’t even beat everyone at Oklahoma State for total TDs in the same number of years. Zac Robinson ranked 10th and Weeden ranked 16th.

        McCoy ranked 2nd in the Big Twelve and beat out every other Texas player — some pretty good players like Vince Young, Chris Simms, and Cedric Benson

        • LG

          That’s the Guy, Zac Robinson. He wasn’t even good enough to start for any of the 3 NFL teams he went to that kept getting rid of him, yet Weeden could beat him out at OSU…

    • ABrown

      All Weeden lovers really have to hang on to is yards. They love all the yards he and his receivers gain.

      But most football people will tell you yards don’t mean that much, especially when so many of the yards you are giving Weeden credit for are yards after the catch picked up by Blackmon’s ability to overpower college DBs.

      • tigersbrowns2

        … and career winning percentage & career qb rating …

        • Anonymous

          for only two years compared to McCoy’s four years.

          But when you compare the same time span for their junior and senior years, you get the opposite result — more wins, more TDs, fewer interceptions, and a higher efficiency rating for McCoy.

          I noticed you wanted to dismiss this head to head comparison as comparing apples and oranges —

          That’s really lame, when you want to dismiss the record-breaking totals for McCoy’s 4 years but insist that he fails to measure up because his efficiency rating is almost the same but marginally lower than Weeden’s for half as long.

          Compare apples to apples, their last 2 years, and McCoy’s results are higher.

    • Anonymous

      Danage, McCoy EARNED twice as many college starts. Weeden couldn’t have gained a single yard more because he couldn’t earn the starts. That’s what was.

  3. Aussie

    Seems to make perfect sense to me……I think he’ll get another chance at camp this year……

    • LG

      Now here is the Voice of Reason,great reply Aussie, nobody knows Browns Football like you guys….

      • ABrown

        Yes, I think McCoy will finally get a real chance this year if he isn’t traded.

        LG, the premise of your article makes perfect logical sense. If the two guys played for a coach who made them work, compare their play without Shurmur. Very good idea.

        • LG

          Thanks ABrown

        • ABrown

          Sorry for the typo. I meant “if 2 guys played for a coach that made them both look worse than they are, . . .”

  4. RICK

    LG, I see now you resort to comparing college stats. Keep up the campain though it might work yet. LOL

    • LG

      Rick, I am just showing the fact that McCoy has better numbers and much more experience playing football than Weeden even though Weeden is going on 30-years-old.

  5. RICK

    LG, And what is McCoys record for us again? (with more experience I might add)

    • LG

      Given the chance he would have won more then weeden, he has not had the chance with better pass protection and better players like weeden has had..Give him a shot and lets see..

      • ricktenny

        Remember it took actual defensive players to sack McCoy. Not so much for Weeden. Can you say FLAG?

        • LG

          LMAO that is funny Ricktenny

          • ABrown

            Weeden has introduced a new QB move. Most QBs learn to slide at the end of their runs to avoid injury.

            Weeden has developed something new — the slice in the pocket to lay down jst before the pass rush gets to him.

          • LG

            LOL you’re right ABrown

      • ABrown

        And don’t forget that McCoy faced the most difficult set of opponents in Browns 64 year history, and led the walking wounded in 2011 against the 19th hardest schedule.

        Weeden faced a cream puff schedule like Anderson faced in 2007 that ranked among the easiest in Browns history, with a much more talented team.

        • tigersbrowns2

          … and the bottom line is STILL …

          mccoy > 6-15 > .285%
          weeden > 5-10 > .333%

          no matter how you paint the picture , the numbers above don’t change.

          • ABrown

            The bottom line is this, TB2. So far the Weeden lovers have ragged on McCoy because he supposedly regresses in his 2nd year.

            But if you believe that Shurmur makes QBs worse, then — poof — that criticism goes away, and we can look back at McCoy’s very strong beginning in the NFL, although he wasn’t prepared at all to start by the coaches in his first year.

            And it’s really clear that Shurmur was even more disastrous as a coach in his year with Colt. Weeden got the much better Shurmur who started from right after the draft getting Weeden ready to play as well as he could. So Weeden really should have played better than he did.

          • tigersbrowns2

            good post … but , how do you measure effective coaching ??

            unfortunatley , it’s wins & losses. i know most people would say shurmur is a knucklehead … but how would shurmur have done if he was coaching the patriots , 49ers or seahawks this year ??

            it still takes talent & a little luck to make a coach look good.

          • ABrown

            But neither does the Strength of Schedule.

            It will always be easier to beat a 2 and 14 team than a 14 and 2 team — bottom line that’s the difference in what Weeden and McCoy have done as NFL quarterbacks.

  6. tigersbrowns2

    also , i think the photo above is a little over-the-top … i’m all for freedom of speech & freedom of the press , but geez …

    • LG

      TB2 with all due respect to you, I could care less what you think about the photo. We all think it is funnier than hell……If Weeden can turn into a consistent winning q.b.. we will give him the respect he would earn. Until then his is just a big time waste of a first round draft that didn’t even get the browns to .500 he sucks….

      • tigersbrowns2

        nice …

  7. RICK

    LG, Oh I see it’s the would of should of scenerio again. It always comes back to that.

    • Bob

      Rick – If you you read LGs article above the theme is if you are going to blame the coaching for Weeden’s play then the same should apply to McCoy, so LG threw out Weeden’s year with Shurmur (2012) & McCoy’s year with Shurmur (2011) and took their college stats because that is really all Weeden has to evenly compare with McCoy. This is not a would of should of scenerio article. No where in the article does it mention anything of a would or should with the Browns.

      LG – One thing you forgot (unless I missed something) is that McCoy (although injured during the title game) led his team to the BCS championship.

      BUT what shows up on paper if you don’t throw out 2011 & 2012 is that McCoy (ranked #25) has better QB rating & QB ranking then Weeden (ranked #35). See I believe the front offices really look at that. And as we all know McCoy did not have the protection or talent around him that Weeden had. Also when comparing 2011 & 2012 they both had the same amount of touchdowns, but McCoy had less games played then Weeden. Also Weeden had more interceptions then McCoy when comparing the 2011 to 2012 season. Weeden 17 to McCoy’s 11. McCoy can also run with the ball and Weeden can not.

      Although I hope McCoy will be the starter because overall he is better, I do think both he & Weeden will be traded. Lastly, Weeden’s age does matter when planning for the future.

      • LG

        You are right, I completely over looked the fact Colt led them to the BCA title game….I was too impressed with how close he came to a Heisman Trophy which I am sure I have spelled wrong. How many votes did the Weed get?

      • tigersbrowns2

        hi BOB … doesn’t a good/great qb raise the level of play of everyone around him ??

        i’m tired of hearing about the talent levels … weeden played on the youngest squad in the nfl which led to many rookie mistakes & the browns were right near the top on the nfl in dropped passes again this year.

        and they both had to play under shurmur … so bottom line , once again, is mccoy is 6-15 as a starter & weeden is 5-10.

        • Bob

          I will repeat….

          BUT what shows up on paper if you don’t throw out 2011 & 2012 is that McCoy (ranked #25) has better QB rating & QB ranking then Weeden (ranked #35). See I believe the front offices really look at that. And as we all know McCoy did not have the protection or talent around him that Weeden had. Also when comparing 2011 & 2012 they both had the same amount of touchdowns, but McCoy had less games played then Weeden. Also Weeden had more interceptions then McCoy when comparing the 2011 to 2012 season. Weeden 17 to McCoy’s 11. McCoy can also run with the ball and Weeden can not.

          • ABrown

            Bob, you are right about the real bottom line for quarterback play. It isn’t most of all wins and losses because, as TB2 says, those are team wins and losses.

            It’s really measures of individual play.

            McCoy wins with the overall QB ratings.

            He also wins with the rating of long passing (Pro Football Focus Signature Stat).

            (NOTE: PFF eliminates dropped passes from the rating to give a clearer picture of QB play — so the who had more dropped passes isn’t important)

            In 2011, Colt McCoy ranked 13th in the NFL for deep passing. He was tied with Eli Manning and one spot behind Tom Brady at 12th and one spot ahead of Joe Flacco at 14th. (43.8% completion rate)

            In 2011, McCoy ranked 17th in the NFL (Shurmur factor?) behind Tom Brady again at 16th and ahead of Cam Newton at 18th. (40.9% completion rate)

            In 2012, Brandon Weeden ranked 31st behind behind Carson Palmer and ahead of Ryan Fitzpatrick. (31.6 completion percentage)

            Or let’s look at third down conversions since the QB is involved in all if those plays and directly responsible for most of them.

            In 2011, the Browns ranked 12th in the NFL in 3rd down conversions.

            In 2012, the Browns ranked 30th.

            But when you look at the games in 2011 when McCoy was QB, his percentage on 3rd down ranks the team 10th in the NFL and even higher — 8th — in 2010.

            This is and ideal place to compare QBs. During Shurmur’s time in Cleveland, 3 QBs played for him.

            McCoy converted more 40% of his 3rd downs.

            Weeden and Wallace were almost identical on 3rd downs, converting between 30 and 31%.

            With the same team and same coach McCoy out plays Wallace. With a better team and the same coach, McCoy outplays Weeden.

            McCoy clearly raises the level of the players around him.

            I noticed 2 equally dramatic differences in QB influence in Seattle and Denver.

            Before Wilson and Manning started this year, both teams ranked like Cleveland did without McCoy at the bottom of the league. Like McCoy, Wilson and Manning dramatically improved the performance of their teams in this crucial area.

            Weeden, on the other hand, had the same effect on the Browns as Tavaris Jackson in Cleveland and Orton/Tebow in Denver.

            A talented QB raises the play of everyone around him.

        • ABrown

          TB2, this argument that poor Weeden had all those talented rookies to play with and no one else had it so hard.

          Andrew Luck blasts a hole in that excuse.
          He had the same number of rookies on offense, plus a much weaker O-line, and 2 of his rookie receivers totally knocked Little out of any contention for most dropped passes.

          Luck had a tougher challenge and produced better results. Let’s put the poor-Weeden-with-all-the-rookies excuse to rest.

          • tigersbrowns2

            to be contrary (as usual) … all i know is the browns had the youngest squad in the nfl.

            i don’t know where to find this … but how many squads in the history of the nfl , that were the youngest squads in the nfl , ever even had a sliver of success ??

            and please , let’s stop comparing luck & weeden … we’re talking about the #1 overall pick & a 2nd or 3rd round talent.

          • LG

            Just goes to show ya TB2 we got screwed big time by that piece of crap Holmgren who really wasn’t hungry enough to win anymore. He just wanted to super charge his bank account….

          • tigersbrowns2

            hi LG … you bring up a good point about holmgren.

            when we returned in 1999 i thought we were in goods hands with policy & clark … you know , all those superbowls & winning tradition of the 49ers … nothing.

            then we tried the patriot way with pioli , crennel & others … again , good winning tradition & good way of doing things … nothing.

            then we thought for sure holmgren would get it right … great track record … nothing.

            are we freakin’ cursed, or something ??

            hopefully , with the guys we have now & the law of averages , we may finally do something.

            btw , did we break the record for number of posts in one of your columns ?? this one’s gettin’ up there.

            have a good one …

          • LG

            No we aren’t cursed. Al Learner died. They were a play off team with in the first 4 years of coming back. Then the guy dies…..Randy didn’t want the team and down went the ship…..He should have called me to run it for him….LOL

          • ABrown

            TB2, “the youngest team” in the NFL doesn’t mean all that much because the difference in the average age between the youngest and the oldest is roughly one and a half years. The youngest and second and third youngest will differ in a few one-hundredths of a year or a few days.

            Most rookies may be more significant, but as I said Luck had just as many rookies. But you say it’s not fair to compare Weeden to Luck because he plays better.

            Bottom line is you will twist and hedge and never give up trying to wrangle a way to make excuses for Weeden and justify his substandard play and this even includes trying to diminish another player’s achievements so Weeden looks better.

            Are you two related?

          • ABrown

            LG, you’re right we aren’t cursed except by bad coaching and management.

            I’m watching the Brady 6 on NFL films, and it reminded me that Cleveland drafted a QB the year Tom Brady was drafted in the 6th round. The Browns passed on Brady and drafted Spergun Wynn earlier in the 6th round.

            Last year we were looking for a quarterback again and took Weeden when Russell Wilson and Kurt Cousins were among the QBs available.

          • LG

            That,s The Cleveland Way, Makes no sense. If you look back far enough on the Cleveland Sports 360 site you would find an article saying that the Browns have got to draft Julio Jones. It makes no sense why they didn’t we had that pick and we traded it away. The Browns should read my articles and take the players I call out and we would have a much better football team, with Colt McCoy starting…..

          • ABrown

            I agree, LG. And I saw more evidence the other day that we really made a mistake not drafting Julio Jones.

            Gil Brandt (long time Cowboys VP for Player Personnel and now lead player scout and commentator for the NFL Network) was writing about Julio Jones coming into his own. Brandt says he now believes Jones is even better than the Lions Calvin Johnson.

            He admits that there may still be a few more who rate Johnson higher, but the opinion is shifting and the two receivers are very close. But for him, Jones is now the better receiver.

            We got Weeden, Little, and Marecic for trading draft spots with Atlanta where we or they would have drafted Julio Jones.

            As time goes on, you are proven more and more on target with that judgement. Looks like a bullseye now.

          • LG

            ABrown I think you would enjoy this article, it could be considered as literary genius by some…..LOL


      • RICK

        Bob, My reply on should of could was LG’s statement when I asked him about McCoys record for us. It had nothing to do with his mention of the college stats LG was talking about. I now Weeden is slow but he averaged more per carry than Richardson which shows you how much to rely on stats. (I am just guessing on the yrds per carry) so dont throw me under the bus. LOL

        • Bob

          I would never throw YOU under the bus Rick.

        • ABrown

          What that shows, Rick, is that you need a certain number of carries, in the case of yards-per-carry to get reliable stats.

          That’s sort of like scouts evaluating college quarterbacks. They say that close to 30 starts is a minimum for making any kind of reliable prediction about how a QB is going to do in the pros. It does mean something that McCoy was able to start for 4 years and play well every year with changing personnel.

          It’s a better bet that players who have started 30 or more games, like McCoy, Luck, Kaepernick, Griffin, Wilson, and Dalton are much easier to evaluate accurately.

  8. Jeff Price

    Rating McCoy over Weeden only shows that the Browns made back to back mistakes in regards to drafting a quarterback.

    • Bob

      What rating are you talking about? When I see this rating at I see McCoy as a better QB. And as we all know McCoy did not have the protection or talent around him that Weeden had.

      The real back to back mistake was Shurmur coaching in 2011 & 2012. Another mistake the Browns made was never giving McCoy a full season including an uninterrupted full pre-season camp.

      • RB

        Bob, the defense performed better the year McCoy played. So while Weeden may have had better talent, they were rookies and Weeden had to depend a lower performing defense.

        • Bob

          Yes, 2011 defense better. But last I checked this 2012 defense helped Weeden win games. Last I checked, Weeden was not really a factor in the Browns wins and had NO late game heroics at all and he was TERRIBLE in the redzone and 3rd down conversions. Did I mention McCoy’s 80 yard touchdown drive against Denver when Shurmur finally allowed him to throw for the first time all year?

          How many touchdowns did Weeden get against KC in the Browns 30-7 win? ZERO!

          Against San Diego in the Browns 7-6 win? ZERO again.

          Against Pittsburgh in the 20-14 win? One touchdown and Big Ben did not even play and Weeden had 3 interceptions in this game BTW.

          Against Oakland in the 20-17 win? One touchdown.

          Against Cincinati in the 34-24 win? Two touchdowns. Defense was a factor here due to Dalton’s 3 interceptions and a fumble. But at least Weeden did get two touchdowns, so I’ll give him credit here.

          And once again as repeated by McCoy supporters ALL the TIME, McCoy did not have the talent and protection Weeden had or the full preseason. McCoy also had more balls dropped by his receivers then Weeden had. Just ask Greg Little. And while you are at it, ask Dawson about those bad snaps that I believe cost the Browns at least two games in 2011. Also, send a tweet to Pashos & company and ask him how they protected McCoy.

          • ABrown

            Absolutely right, Bob, and this idea that the defense was so much stronger in 2011 doesn’t really hold up in the most important measure.

            The 2012 defense got 29 take aways compared to the 2011 defense with only 20.

            In 2012 the offense had 26 turnovers while the 2011 Browns had only 19 turnovers.

            When you look at the margin, Weeden hurts this year’s defense a little with his turnovers, but the 2012 defense still comes out ahead with plus 3 compared to the plus 1 turnover margin in 2011.

            The 2012 defense looks a lot better.

            Then in the rushing offense. We ranked 32nd in 2011 and 13th in 2012 — big advantage handed to Weeden. While the 2011 passing offense is ranked 27 in points to the 2012 at 28.

          • RB

            Am actually replying to
            ABrown on rushing offense. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Browns had less than 100 yards more in 2012 versus 2011.

          • ABrown

            RB, I was using the rankings on TDs instead of yards. Here’s the total ranking.

            In 2012, rushing offense ranked 24th for yards and 13nd for points.

            In 2011, rushing offense ranked 28th for yards and 32nd for points. Without McCoy, the rushing offense yards would have ranked 32nd in both categories, but our yards would have been over 100 yards less than the worst team in the NFL.

            McCoy didn’t get much help from the running game in 2011.

    • ricktenny

      I’m not so sure of that, but they certainly made back to back mistakes with Schumer amd Childress.

      • ABrown

        They certainly did.

  9. Compass90

    Why not just have an open competition in training camp, and let the new coaching staff decide whom to start?

    • LG

      Great Idea Compass, maybe this year it won’t be rigged.

  10. tigersbrowns2

    look people , we all know the lion’s share of LG’s articles deal with weeden and/or mccoy even though there are dozens of other subjects pertaining to the browns.

    why ?? … because this is obviously a hot topic & LG knows he will get ALOT of hits with this topic … i might do the same thing if i was in his shoes.

    while it can be debated until the cows come , let’s face it ,neither side is the winner & neither side is always right in their argument.

    for the browns to get to 8-8 , 9-7 or make the playoffs in 2013 it will have to be more than just the qb play … they will also have to play solid defense , play solid special teams & also be coached well. the browns can win with either qb , but it will still have to be a total team effort.

    i personally will support mccoy if he ends-up being the starter next year. i just want to see the browns win it all before i meet my maker.

    and there’s really no need to bash weeden … don’t blame him for being a 2nd or 3rd round talent taken in the 1st round … that’s not his fault. blame should go to holmgren and/or heckert. i am positive weeden is doing the best he can despite all the trivial nonsense about him that is brought up.

    have a good one …

    • LG

      We all want to see the Browns win it all before we meet our maker. It isn’t gonna happen with Weeden…..

      • tigersbrowns2

        good god , man … you are one tuff mother … you just can’t help yourself can you ??

        • LG

          What are you talking about TB2?

          • tigersbrowns2

            “it isn’t gonna happen with weeden” …

            i’m trying to bring a little calm to this debate … you will not budge … can’t you even be a little diplomatic ??

          • LG

            It is one of my flaws, I always tell the truth. Hey TB2 If he is here and he turns into a real good player I would write an article saying how wrong I was about him. I am a man of my word. I would do it…But right now, I think it was a serious mistake, the kind of mistake that doesn’t come with an eraser.

        • LG

          Hey TB2, which Verlander shows up this season? The one that wins 24 games or the one that wins 17.5 games?

          • tigersbrowns2

            good subject … i think you can put jv down for 19 – 21 wins & cy young consideration.

            i live in toledo, oh. and have been a tigers & browns fan since the early 70′s … never cared for the lions or the indians.

            the browns were absolutely horrible when i started to root for them … mike phipps was the qb & greg pruitt was the rb … finished 3-11 alot of those years , but they were fun to watch … especially pruitt.

            well, at least i got to see one of my teams win a championship in my lifetime … the 1984 tigers … one of the best teams ever.

          • LG

            I’ve had the pleasure of hanging out with Gregg, I was the M.C. at Coach Sam Rutigliano’s golf out to raise ,money for his inner circle foundation. Gregg is a great guy….

      • RB

        LG, here’s an idea for an article. Your favorite childhood sports memory.

        I have many. I was fortunate to have watched Jim Brown play.

        I remember listening to the thrilla in manilla on a transister radio even though I was suppose to be asleep.

        Hell, I remember when Secretariat won the Triple Crown. I was floored at how he crushed the competition.

        Damn, I’m getting old lol.

        • LG

          Rb, I don’t know if you saw this or not, but on the site there is a link on the Cleveland Sports 360 site that explains how to submit an article. You could even win cash. Check it out and if you would like to write an article and send it to me I would be more than happy to publish it for you…

          • ABrown

            RB, that’s a great idea for an article. Create the power of the memory for some of those great events and then ask readers about their favorite memories, too. In a lot of ways, there’s nothing better than our memories of the most heroic moments for our favorite teams and players.

            Consider writing it. You’d do a really good job and probably enjoy it.

        • ricktenny

          RB. That’s a good idea. Unfortunatly it’s not a Browns memory. Although I am a very long time fan. Any way my favorite memory was watching the 1958 Baltimore Colts beat the New York Giants to win the World Championship.
          Just for that game I was a traitor to my Browns fandom.

          • ABrown

            Sounds to me like you were keeping the faith. The Giants had done what they couldn’t do for so many years and beaten the Browns in the Division Championship Game that year.

            A really good Browns fan would have definitely cheered against the Giants and for the Colts in the NFL Championship game.

            There’s more to the story, too. The Browns with Otto Graham had owned the NFL and were in every championship game.

            The Giants hadn’t been in the picture, but in 1954, when they got a new coach who hired Vince Lombardi as offensive coordinator and Tom Landry as defensive coordinator, their biggest goal was to beat the Browns.

            They weren’t able to do that until 1958, the 3rd season after Graham retired, and the book I read recently about the two famous coordinators mentioned an unconfirmed rumor about stealing Paul Brown’s playbook.

            And then there’s Johnny Unitas for the Colts, one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, the first to ever throw for over 3000 yards in a season and 4 time league MVP.

            That must have been a game to see, with future Hall of Fame players and coaches all over the field.

  11. RB

    LG, you just won’t give it up.

    Since you brought up the Heisman vote, let me let you in on a secret. Heisman is about college play, not professional football.

    Archie Griffin won it twice, yet it didn’t translate into a great nfl career.

    The one thing you keep forgetting. It’s a team sport. The Texas teams were better.

    Some quarterbacks do well because of the system they played in while in college.

    McCoy, Tebow, Leinart and Sanchez all fall into that category. They are the product of the systems. Successful in college ball. Not so great as a professional football player.

    There’s a possibility that Brandon Weeden will fall into that category as well.

    • LG


    • ABrown

      Leinert and Sanchez were part of the USC system that was essentially plug and play. But McCoy and Tebow transcended the system they were in. Tebow doesn’t have the passing skills for the NFL. McCoy does.

      The scouts talked about the offense that Weeden was in, also the spread, but a simpler version which relied on a lot of short passes. Their prediction was that the simple offense would slow Weeden’s pro development and make him go into his 30s before he could get a handle on the pro offenses — which seems like it will be too late for him.

      I just heard Steve Young talk about Tebow and meeting with him. He says he first thought — couldn’t pass — but he says the real problem is mechanics, that Tebow needs to take a step or two back to rebuild his passing mechanics.

      I heard Namath, Stuabach, and FLutie, along with Young praise him in “A Football Life”

      And while we’re thinking about the “system” QB. That’s what scouts said about Brady — just a system QB.

      A lot of success in the NFL depends on going to the right team with a platform of players and coaching talent to give a QB the chance to play the position and succeed. A lot of players drafted don’t get that.

      It not only takes skill to succeed in the NFL; it also takes a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time.

  12. marty stys

    Colt McCoy’s Dad embarrassed the Brown’s management. Weedon did not embarressed the management.

    Thus a big advantage for Weedon on being a brownnoser.

    • LG

      But the old management is gone. Do you think the Dad thing still has an effect?

    • Bob

      “Colt McCoy’s Dad embarrassed the Brown’s management.” – YES! This may have the real reason McCoy was replaced. Pride over wins brought to you by Holmgren & Company. Even Grossi believed this was true.

      But didn’t Weeden call Shurmur out regarding not being prepared on some plays?

  13. RB

    Well, what are your thoughts on the possibility of the Browns bringing in Matt Moore as an option for the QB competition?

    Though I hate to waste too much free agency money on a QB, it is an option that it out there.

    Flacco won’t be coming to Cleveland. The Ravens will place a Franchise Tag on Flacco before they let him go, and if they don’t I believe there are more attractive options available to Flacco than Cleveland.

    • LG

      I don’t really like it….

  14. ABrown

    I noticed someone wanted to totally dismiss McCoy’s running ability because many of the best QBs right now don’t run much at all.

    According to that argument we should dismiss any advantage Weeden has with a strong arm since none of those non-running QBs have a really strong arm.

    But running should not be dismissed so quickly just because Weeden is disadvantaged in that area.

    Off the top of my head, I can think of several Hall of Fame Qbs who used their running ability very effectively: Montana, Young, Elway, Staubach, and Tarkington, for example. Bradshaw and Aikman and Rothlesberger didn’t run alot but used their running ability to move the chains and escape sacks.

    Then there are the best young QBs: Newton, Luck, Griffin, Wilson, and Kaepernick have emphatically reminded anyone who doubted it just how important running ability can be for a QB.

    McCoy’s ability to run effectively is definitely an advantage over Weeden.

    • RICK

      Unless you end up like RG3. I think it’s good to be mobile but not necesarily a runner. Sooner or later somebody nails them for a big injury.

      • Bob

        And when a quarterback stands like a statue he can be laid out just as hard also. Or a QB can be like Weeden and fall into a fetal position before the defense even hits you.

    • tigersbrowns2

      ummmm ABROWN … there you go again … i’m not taking anything away from mccoy.

      you & i both know i was stating that a qb running the ball in not the only prerequisite to being a successful qb in the nfl.

  15. RB

    Abrown…to be exact, the Browns rushed for 62 more yards in 2012 than 2011. That’s not even 4 more yards per game.

    So not sure if your info is correct on going from 32nd rushing offense in 2011 to 13th in 2012.

    • ABrown

      I just posted a reply to your earlier comment. I was referring to the points ranking instead of yards, since points are what counts.

      The rankings come from both ESPN and Pro Football Reference team rankings.

      The yards rankings are closer but still give an advantage this year’s team — 24th in 2012 and 28th in 2011.

      However, when you subtract McCoy’s yards from the 2011 team, it ranks 32nd in the league with over a hundered fewer yards than the team currently ranked last.

      The rushing offense wasn’t much help to McCoy in 2011, but the 2012 rushing offense gave Weeden a whole lot of those points people like to praise him for.

      • RB

        If I have the ball inside the 3 yard line I would choose to run more than I would choose to pass. Whether is a rushing TD or a passing TD doesn’t matter. As you said scoring is what matters, and the Browns scored over 6 more points per game this year versus last year. The fact that you run the ball in for a TD doesn’t decrease the value of the QB. A score is a score.

        • LG

          Rb, the browns were one of the worse teams in the NFL in the red zone this past season. I think they ranked 29th out of 21 teams. So much for T-Rich being the beast who could get in there. We will cut him some slack due to the ribs but other wise we have to do better…Weeden couldn’t even throw a touch pass to the corner to save his own life…..

  16. Anonymous

    TB2, you keep harping on your belief that Texas had an all-around better team so McCoy’s accomplishments don’t count.

    You asked anonymous “in your honest opinion , who played on the better all-around TEAM ??”

    I’ll answer that for you. Texas had the better talent on defense, and Oklahoma State had the better talent on offense (All Americans at RB, WR, and OL is hard to argue with).

    But the Texas offense became the star of the team because McCoy was great enough at quarterback to raise the level of play of everyone around him.

    So here’s your answer: Weeden played very well with a lot of talent around him.

    The teams were roughly even in overall talent with defense going to Texas and offense going to OSU.

    It’s even except for one difference: Colt McCoy.

    Texas had the overall better team because they had a truly great quarterback who made everyone around him better.

    • tigersbrowns2

      hi ANONYMOUS … mccoy’s accomplishments DO count … i have said many times he is one of the all-time greats in college football.

      i’m sorry , he can’t win games all by himself … being on a great team HELPED him to all those wins.

      would mccoy have won that many games if he played at ball state ?? maybe …
      maybe not.

      • LG

        Ball State….TOO funny

  17. Bob

    Wow. Let’s get the comments to 100!

    ABrown made a great point – “Let’s make it fair and compare the last 2 years of both quarterbacks and see how they look head to head.” To point out McCoy did do better then Weeden when comparing their last two years in college. TB2 didn’t like it. Should we compare McCoy & Weeden’s first two years in college? lol. McCoy wins again because Weeden was warming the bench. lol.

    BTW – I read somewhere & saw on twitter that McCoy has been working out with several fellow ex-Longhorns now NFL players in Austin. Seriously – Does anyone know if Weeden has been working out with current NFL players this off-season?

    • RICK

      Whats the point in comparing college careers.Your talking about two different styles of teams with different coaching and personel.We all know about their college careers and with all the talent that Colt is suppose to have he still has a losing record in the NFL.Blame it on the coaching if you want or our talent level but we will find out this year. with the new coaching

      • LG

        The point is this Rick, It shows McCoy has a bit more experience playing football than Weeden. It shows he can compete with the very best. He wasn’t given the chance but this year he well get it and may the best player win and lead the Browns to some victories….

      • ABrown

        Rick, both Texas and Oklahoma State run the spread offense — OSU’s is simpler, but still the same — and they both play in the Big 12 against similar defenses and styles of play.

        This is about as close a comparison as you can get.

  18. tigersbrowns2

    hi BOB … “TB2 didn’t like it” ??
    c’mon man , i enjoyed it.

    ABROWN is one tuff cookie … can’t she let me be right one time … one time … throw me a freakin’ bone.

    btw , i have heard weeden was making paper dolls with his wife … so yes, he is ready for this upcoming season.

    • ABrown

      Be careful with that rumor, TigersBrowns2, or it will be all over the internet by the end of the day.

      You were kidding about that, weren’t you?

    • Bob

      lol – paper dolls. I would not throw you under a bus either TB2.

  19. Anonymous

    Why talk about how the two played in college? Why not compare their first year(s) in the NFL…that is what matters here anyway. If you throw out McCoys first year since he didn’t play the whole season and compare his 2011 numbers (13 games) to Weeden’s 2012 (14 games)…they seem about even to me.

    QB rating – Weeden -72.6, McCoy – 74.6,

    TDs – Weeden – 14, McCoy – 14

    Passing YDS – Weeden – 3385, McCoy – 2733

    Interceptions – Weeden – 17, McCoy – 11

    Completion Rate – Weeden – 57.4, McCoy 57.2

    Rushing Yds. Weeden – 4.1, McCoy – 3.5


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