Brandon Weeden  Week 12 report cardThe Performance of Browns Rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden in week 12 against the Pittsburgh Steelers didn’t get high marks according to the Cleveland Plain Dealer Ohio’s largest newspaper. Weeden who threw for only 158 yards after his Browns defense didn’t get high marks from the newspaper. The writer goes on to say;

In real time, Weeden’s performance seemed uneven and largely uninspiring. After a dvr review of the CBS telecast, it felt the same. If Weeden were in a car, he  would have been sputtering along in low gear.

The Cleveland Browns defense performed at an extremely high level in the game against the Steelers, the Plain Dealer writer goes on to say;

The primary assist went to running back Trent Richardson (29 carries, 85 yards, touchdown; four receptions, 27 yards.) With that type of support, Colt McCoy or Brady Quinn or Derek Anderson could have prevailed — or maybe even Charlie Frye.

The Browns defense did do a heck of a job stopping the Steelers on every front in the game. The hits the Browns defense put on the Steelers running back were second to none. The Browns got a huge win over Pittsburgh and the Plain Dealer article goes on to state;

Pittsburgh’s loss comes with a Pennsylvania-sized asterisk. Starting quarterback Ben Roethlisberger and backup Byron Leftwich were injured, leaving the game in the hands of 37-year-old Charlie Batch. Not unexpectedly, Batch underwhelmed at a high level (20-of-34, 199 yards, three interceptions, one sack). According to ESPN Stats and Information, Batch was 2-of-11 with two interceptions on throws more than 10 yards downfield, including 0-of-5 targeting dangerous Mike Wallace. The Browns entered the day ranked second in the league with a 38.9-percent completion allowed on throws deeper than 10 yards.

The Browns fans didn’t get to see any of the great attributes that Brandon Weeden is suppose to bring to the Browns in this game. Weeden is suppose to be a highly accurate quarterback and his arm strength is suppose to be superior, Weeden didn’t exactly show that in the game,he struggled to be honest with you. Here is what the Plain Dealer had to say about that;

Weeden did not do anything that made the Steelers nervous. His biggest attribute, a strong arm, barely registered downfield. His longest attempt, to an open Travis Benjamin in the first quarter, hit a wall in the air about 20 yards short of the target and ended up knuckling in and out of the hands of Steelers defensive back Will Allen.

Another of Weeden’s attributes, accuracy, was lacking on even moderately challenging throws. He went 2-of-7 for 29 yards on passes that traveled 10+ yards in the air from the line of scrimmage.

You can read the entire article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer by clicking here…..     You have to wonder if the remarks by the Browns new team president Joe Banner are putting pressure on the 29-year-old rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden. Ever since Banner said the Browns would use his last 7 games to evaluate Weeden to see if he is the guy going forward Weeden has shown unrest. Both in his on-field performance and by the comments he has made about the Browns coaching staffs play calling. Weeden is starting to show the wears and tears of playing in the NFL and not living up to the expectations of the Cleveland Fans…..

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Readers Comments (136)

  1. Dave J.

    No place in this ranting did you mention that Weeden and company faced one of the best defenses in the league. And to speak to the “dysfunctional” Browns offense, the Browns scored two offensive touchdowns this week against this defense. The last time a team scored two offensive touchdowns against Pittsburgh was in week 7 (Cincinnati). Since week 7 the Steelers have only allowed 3 offensive touchdowns and kept the Ravens offense out of the endzone prior to playing the Browns. Everybody complains when the Browns lose but it seems people complain more when the Browns win because we apparently didn’t win the right way.

    • ABrown

      What “ranting” Dave J? This is a discussion of the Plain Dealer article. No ranting here.

      • Dave J.

        Ranting was an over exaggeration. What I was trying to get out of it was what LG thought, not what the Plain Dealer thought. LG obviously obliged, which I expected. We may disagree but I didn’t expect him to run and hide. Wasn’t meant in a disrespectful tone.

  2. tigersbrowns2

    hi LG … none of that matters … all that matters is that he beat the steelers. keep in mind the steelers have the #1 defense & were comin’ hard all day as evidenced by all of the offensive holding calls in the 2nd half.

    what if he would’ve thrown for 400 yards , 5 td’s 0 int’s & still lost the game ?? … then everyone would say “doesn’t matter , he still lost the game”.

    the win over our hated rival trumps all of the negatives … even if you give our defense credit … or blame the steelers for turning the ball over so many times.

    not sure how bad weeden is hurting , but mccoy backers may get to see him start this week.

    have a good one …

  3. longhaul

    good article. i have said many times weeden is not a starting qb. he wld b a desent back up.he gets cold feet makes bad throws bad reads. if you really stop and think about it since we got our browns back have we ever really had a lagit starting qb a real leader? couch and mccoy are the only ones i can think of. and we all know what was done to both of them

    • tigersbrowns2

      hi LONGHAUL … holcomb & delhomme were the others , then wallace when
      delhomme got hurt.

    • tigersbrowns2

      since 1999 … couch , dorsey , gradkowski , wynn , pederson , mccown , detmer , quinn , dilfer , frye , garcia & d. anderson as well.

      • ABrown

        TigersBrowns2, I think Longhaul was trying to make a more profound point about quarterbacks.

        It takes more than being listed in the program. It takes a special kind of leadership that a lot of the players you named didn’t really have.

        Good point, Longhaul, Couch and McCoy have a special quality of leadership.

  4. RICK

    So whats your point, we read that already. We all know by now how you feel about Weeden, (you’ve pounded your dead horse all year) The Browns won as a team I see no problem with that. Dont worry your savior might get a chance to start this week and all will be good in LG country.

    • LG

      LOL too funny Rick….You to funny….We should be a lot better than 3-8 that is the point the great white hope turned out to be afraid to play the game that is the point….

      • Dave J.

        Yea, we were much better when McCoy was the starter! That 6-15 record really drives home your point. We aren’t 3-8 right now solely because of Brandon Weeden. McCoy was a third round draft pick. Life is not fair for a third round draft pick, on top of that he never showed much, and I’m a Colt McCoy fan! I was one of the guys before the draft saying get him some tools (like Justin Blackmon, glad we didn’t go that route). I’d also like to hear your thoughts, not The Plain Dealers thoughts.

        • LG

          Dave J,, thanks for taking the time to leave a reply. First of all, to excel in the west coast style offense you have to learn the system. It is very complex. Secondly Colt McCoy had a serous shoulder injury he suffered in his final college game. People have stated that his arm looks stronger this year becasue it is actually stronger. McCoy knew the offense better than Brandon Weeden and he out performed Weeden in the preseason too. It is hilarious how all these weeden fans talk about how many dropped passes the guys have, they seem to have forgotten all the dropped balls that people had last year. Colt McCoy should have finished the season last year with the Browns at 7 wins, two games the Browns lost with bad long snaps, one game the defense was caught off guard. Also last season the team didn’t hardly have a training camp due to the lock-out. The team had a new head coach a new play book and no practice in the off season. The players weren’t even allowed to visit the facility. With all that McCoy won 4 games. I know it isn’t much the 4 wins but he should have been given a fair shot this season. I am all for a Q.B> that can post wins. I think McCoy can do that and he can do that on a pretty even keel. The Browns gave him very little to work with then they stuck it too him. Where is the Weeden with the highly accurate strong arm we were told about? I haven’t seen it yet and the guy has no heart at all…Put McCOy out on the field and then we get a 110% effort not some guy who falls down if someone comes near him….Weeden is pathetic….I am not a huge Colt McCoy fan, I am a fan of a guy that give you everything in the tank to get a win. McCoy is that guy on the Browns Not Brandon Weeden…..If McCoy had 9 seconds to throw a pass I’ll bet he at least hits someone with the football..And that someone would be a Cleveland Browns player not the other team…

          • Dave J.

            If I hear one more thing about a West Coast System I am gonna puke. Half of the teams league runs the WCO. I’m not buying that as an excuse/reason for Weeden, McCoy, Brees, Rogers, Vick (all of whom run some variance of a WCO) etc. That also assumes that other offensive systems are easy to learn. Learning any offense takes time.

            I’d be curious to know how much game film you’ve watched. I’m not talking about watching the game back on your DVR, I’m talking NFL game film (which is available from the NFL Network for a price) that NFL coaches and players review. All this talk about going through progressions and making reads is mostly regurgitated by people, but tell me what reads is he missing/making specifically? Weeden’s receivers struggle to get open upfield. As good as Gordon has played I’ve seen him quit on routes and run comeback routes that look like he is running around a sinkhole. Yes, Weeden locks onto receivers. So does every other rookie QB.

            And questioning Weeden’s heart? I’ll listen to an argument about his skills and struggles. But are you aware that the Browns had to actually hide Weeden’s helmet after he was taken out of the game Sunday so he wouldn’t go back onto the field? If we wanna talk about heart, I’ll tell you that McCoy has missed the most important game in his football career (his college BCS game). Now there is no argument that McCoy was actually hurt, so my argument makes about as much sense as you questioning Weedens drive to play the game.

            And while we are on the topic of Weeden’s skills, let’s talk about making throws in the NFL. The knock on McCoy, even before his arm injury that has apparently taken 2 years to heal, is that he had a weak arm. This isn’t to say he can’t make a 40 yard pass. He can. But to watch Weeden’s quick release on a deep ball (or any ball) and then to compare that to McCoy’s and say McCoy is better is just flat out incorrect. Yes, McCoy’s receivers dropped the ball last year, same as Weedens. That is not an excuse. I’m not excusing Weeden from poor play, but I cannot find anything that points to McCoy being more than a run-of-the-mill QB in this league. We also talk of McCoy as if he hasn’t had any games to prove himself. What can you point to, besides that he plays hard, that should give anybody any confidence about McCoy? Forget about McCoy vs Weeden, what does McCoy bring to the table that will make people say this is a well above average NFL QB? I’m looking for specifics, not generalities. Give me specific examples.

            Lastly, chemistry is an issue with Weeden and his receivers. The same could also be said for McCoy, except that he has had considerably more time with some of the receivers on this team (training camp or not) with less than impressive results. Weeden and Gordon are showing signs of clicking, and before his injury MoMass was playing better than he had in a long time. Is Weeden the long term answer to this team? I’d like to say so, but it is too early to say one way or the other. I’d say, he has a better chance than McCoy.

            I look forward to any specific examples in an attempt to prove me wrong. As I said before, I was one of the people predraft saying give McCoy a chance. Weeden hasn’t wowed anybody on a consistent basis but the offense is playing better. McCoy in his time as a starter had only one 300+ yard passing game. In 22 game appearances he averages just over 195 passing yards per game. Is part of that the receivers? Sure. But part of that is also the man throwing the ball. Under Weeden we are scoring more frequently and sustaining more drives. Under McCoy the offense was much more predictable.

          • LG

            Of course the Offense is playing better. They have more people that can play…..McCoy brings a dimension to the game Weeden does not. McCoy can run and he can run a lot. Weeden is not quick at all as a matter of fact the guy is slow. Also whether you want to hear this or not, Colt McCoy has a higher football I.Q. than Weeden does. Weeden has had difficulty learning the play book and that is a fact. Lastly why do all you people always say “McCoy is Better than Weeden or Weeden is better than McCoy”? Where in the world have I said McCoy is better than Weeden? What I may have said is I think right now on this Browns team McCoy would have more wins than Weeden has right now. I guess we may never know who is better unless they play them both….Then we can see the difference….

  5. RB

    First of all, it’s the plain dealer.

    Secondly, I am surprised they were okay with Richardson’s performance considering he averaged less than 3 yards per carry. I’m even more surprised you were okay with Richardson’s performance.

    You yourself have said all that matters is the wins. Hopefully you addressed that with the plain dealer, showing them the errors of their ways.

    • LG

      I am waiting for a reply now

  6. KC

    All you Brown fans have gotten so complacent in what you believe is a winning QB. If you truly believe Weeden is your future QB I have to feel sorry for you. Again I have stated he does not provide leadership that any team needs from a QB. I don’t care how many years this poor rookie needs he will never be a winner. Just take a look at all the other rookie QB’s in the league, he is so inadequate compared to the others. The Brown’s should have beat the Steelers, they had no QB at all and I don’t care how tough you believe the Steeler defense is this was a game that the Brown’s would have been laughed at if they had not won. However, all you who love Weeden just keep believing he is your knew super QB that will take the team to victory. For all of us who believe we need someone better, let us hope with the new owner he will make good decisions after this season is over and look to see what QB will bring the Browns back to winning games.

    • tigersbrowns2

      hi KC … the debate amongst us has been who is the better qb to lead the browns this year … not which one is a franchise qb.

      in my opinion , neither one of them are. i also have said you simply can’t judge after a handful of games pointing to the rookie seasons of p.manning, aikman & favre etc. I will reserve my judgement on weeden until the last game is played.

      have a good one …

      • ABrown

        TigersBrowns2, which rookie season were you thinking about for Favre?

        Since he didn’t throw a pass in his first year at Atlanta, you are probably thinking of his other rookie season — the first 16 games that he played in in Green Bay.

        Weeden doesn’t come out well in that comparison. Favre “struggled” to an 85.3 passer rating, 64% completion percentage, 6.85 Y/A and 18 TDs vs 13 INTs. Of course Favre wasn’t a first round pick, and we’ve all been told it takes a first rounder to be really good. . .

        Aikman did have a difficult season but he had a team with very little talent and spent several games on the bench his first year.

        Manning threw a lot of interceptions, but he threw almost as many touchdowns and set the record for most TD passes by a rookie that still stands — 26 — with a team as limited as Aikman’s 1st Dallas squad.

        • tigersbrowns2

          hi ABROWN … you are an excellent poster & usually have the facts to back-it-up … my bad just flipping favre’s name in there … i was shooting-from-the-hip on that one. thank you for setting me straight.

          but , i think you get my point , that what if the colts had given up on manning or the cowboys had given up on aikman after only one season.

          have a good one …

          • ABrown

            What if the 49ers and Bill Walsh had given up on Montana? And maybe they should have. After all, he didn’t have a strong arm, was only 6’2″, a third round draft pick, and he didn’t pass the “eye test” a lot of Cleveland sports writers like.

            He didn’t have much to recommend him except that he was mobile, played lights out when the game was on the line, and just won games.

            It’s a good thing for Joe Montana that he was drafted by San Francisco. He would have been a back up in Cleveland. . .

  7. Bob

    I for one, don’t want McCoy to play as long as Shurmer is there period. Shurmer wanted Weeden, then that’s who he should play. I wonder how Shurmer feels about Weeden turning on him last week? Now wasn’t that predictable. And then I read that Weeden spent his day on Saturday trying to defend himself in social media for those comments against Shurmer when he should have been preparing for the game.

    Lastly, why in the hell would Weeden ever allow that ridiculous picture of him dressed in the ol’ red, white and blue out in the media? Too funny after he was attacked by a flag in his first game.

    • tigersbrowns2

      hi BOB … don’t you think it was holmgren & heckert’s idea to bring in weeden ?? i’m just guessing that shurmur hade absolutely nothing to do with this decision … and yet the mccoy backers bash shurmur for ruining his career.

      if i was a bettin’ man , i’d bet shurmur was forced to start weeden & it came from a higher power than shurmur.

      • ABrown

        TigersBrowns2, Heckert said in an interview after the draft that he didn’t want to draft Weeden. Holmgren was supporting his head coaches wish list. This one is Shurmur’s.

        • LG

          That is the truth Holmgren made Heckert take Weeden if it were up to Heckert there is no way that he would have taken Brandon Weeden at the 22nd pick…..

          • Bob

            The fact that Heckert did not want Weeden may save his job in the long run.

    • ABrown

      Hi Bob, I agree with you about not wanting McCoy to play with Shurmur pulling the strings. Shurmur has done so much to hurt McCoy that I don’t know where he would draw the line.

      I think McCoy playing would be Shurmur and Weeden’s worst nightmare. That’s why they had to hide Weeden’s helmet last week. The first time he saw McCoy warming up, Weeden tripped over himself trying to get back in the game.

      And Weeden’s lack of media savy really surprises me. Just about every other high profile college QB comes out better prepared to talk to the press.

      • Bob

        Hi ABrown – You said, “That’s why they had to hide Weeden’s helmet last week. The first time he saw McCoy warming up, Weeden tripped over himself trying to get back in the game.” – lol.

        Regarding Weeden and the media. My prediction it will get worse because Weeden is defensive. I have never heard a rookie QB talk like that before. Has anyone? Some leader. As I said before, they told us Weeden was suppose to be NFL ready due to his maturity. In my opinion, he is one of the most immature QB of the last draft.

        • ABrown

          I think you’re right and things will get worse. We’ve already seen “I’m not a moron.” and “it’s not fair to me” and “how am I supposed to know the routes if we don’t practice them the week before?”

          What’s next? Maybe “Why do I have to learn the whole playbook?”

          • Bob

            It’s his personality, which can not be changed. Remember Derek Anderson when he played the Cardinals after an Arizona loss. See . We’ll probably see this from Weeden soon. People already say weeden is just Anderson Part 2.

            So where was Weeden last night? Resting his head? Studying the playbook? No, he was smiling and showboating for the cameras at the Cavaliers game. Should I accuse him now of not really being hurt, just like McCoy haters did when McCoy got injured in the Alabama game for the BCS Championship. And what’s with “They had to hide his helmet because he wanted to get back in the game” story. Bull. That story was put out there to give us the impression he is tough. Mr “Fetal position” before he gets sacked tough? Really?

  8. longhaul

    dave… if weeden is so good why only 20 points. 8 turnovers you should be able to put way more points than that on the board the score should have been more like 40-13

    • ABrown

      Longhaul, check out this article about teams winning games when they get lots of turnovers.

      Cleveland Browns narrowly avoided wrong side of turnover history against Pittsburgh Steelers – Kerry J. Byrne –

      • Bob

        Even Tomlin said after the Steelers loss that he was surprised that the game was so close after all the fumbles. Probably because he knew Weeden stunk.

        • ABrown

          Bob, interesting comment from Tomlin. The Sport Illustrated article I referred to in response to Longhaul makes a similar point.

          I think our opponents are comforted by watching film on Weeden and it makes a difference in the respect you see on the field.

          I noticed this in watching back-to-back Cowboys games, first against Weeden and then against RGIII. The Dallas defenders were busting a gut trying to stop Griffin, but they showed clear respect for him as they all untangled after a play.

          Dallas defenders showed disrespect for Weeden, and I saw them talking him up a few times. LG said Weeden looked like he was about to cry on the sidelines during that game, and I think that’s why.

    • Dave J

      longhaul, If McCoy is so good why didn’t Shurmur let him even throw the ball once? Also if you are going to post please work on your grammar. Thanks. It’s legit, not lagit. It’s decent not desent.

      • Bob

        The game was winding down. Shurmer would have done the same with Weeden because he wanted to play it conservative and win. BTW did you see McCoy make that tackle when the the ball got loose.

      • ABrown

        Dave, why don’t you try to answer Longhaul’s question about why the Brown’s offense couldn’t score more points, instead of avoiding it by trying to criticize his grammar. Pretty lame.

        You asked why Shurmur didn’t let McCoy throw a pass. That’s easy. Shurmur has spent almost a year trying to brainwash everyone into believing McCoy can’t throw long passes or “stretch the field” when McCoy has thrown and completed more long passes than Weeden game for game.

        With all this work at deceiving the fans, Shurmur would throw his mother off a cliff before he would let McCoy show the fans what he can do with this team.

  9. KC

    Bob, don’t worry McCoy whether he is a better QB or not will never be the starting QB as long as Shurmur is the coach. I do believe that McCoy is a fairly good QB maybe better than Weeden but the Brown’s will never know now. I wish Colt would be traded to another team just to see what kind of a QB he can be. You cannot judge what you saw last year and be fair to him as the Brown’s had nothing for him to work with. Plus he had a new coach with a new offense and no training period. So let us really stop hating McCoy so much and take a look at the big picture. All you McCoy haters have narrowed your thinking to such a small picture but do not worry he will never start here. I hope he somehow will be able to go to another team and start. Will another team pick him up? I don’t know.

    • Bob

      Hi KC – I am a big McCoy supporter. I agree with what you said. I’m just saying that for McCoy I don’t want Shurmer to mess anything up for McCoy’s career or blame him like he did last year. I want McCoy to be able to succeed either in Cleveland or out becaus ehe deserves that after how he was lied to and treated.

  10. mike

    Shurmur and Weeden finally got to play a team so beat down with injuries that they couldn’t help but win.Give the credit to the defense.

    • ABrown

      Mike, absolutely right. The Browns Defense won the game and are ranked above the Offense and in the top 5 in the NFL for causing turnovers.

  11. RB

    KC: I’m not saying Weeden is the answer, I’m just saying Richardson’s performance wasn’t all that either.

    KC: You keep talking about Weeden not being a leader. I am not saying he is, not saying he isn’t. I don’t have access to team practices, meetings, huddles, etc to be able to assess whether he is a leader or not.

    KC: I think it’s more obvious to alot of us Brown’s fans that we’re not in love with Weeden. We feel he’s the better of two QB’s available. It’s also obvious, that LG is a Weeden hater or McCoy lover. In one sentence he says it’s all about wins, except when we win. Then it’s about the QB didn’t do this, this or that.

    I’m not convinced Weeden is the answer, but I am convinved McCoy is not the answer. It will be interesting to see how Banner views things.

    I’m not convinced Shurmur is gone at the end of the year because the team has been competitive in most games. They may decide that taking away the play calling from Shurmur will be enough of a change instead of starting all over. Or they could bring in Bill Cowher and really stir things up.

    You can bitch about Weeden all you want, but we need more help in the defensive back areas than we do at QB. But if you insist on a change at QB, who are you going to draft?

    • ABrown

      RB, you say that LG is a McCoy lover. I think you are wrong. LG is the koolade antidote. Browns fans are very close to being brainwashed by the former front office and their guys in the press.

      You get inaccurate and misleading stats and story lines with excuses for management’s guys and their decisions and you get false reports and stats on their scape goats.

      Look at an article posted on this site a week or so ago about Weeden having the 2nd most dropped passes in the league. That was the headline, but when you got to percentage of drops out of attempts, he’s no where near the most victimized. He just throws a lot more passes than most NFL QBs. This is also not a great excuse for losing because the winningest QBs often lead in this area.

      If you want to hear both sides of the story and have someone objecting when the press or front office is lying, don’t attack the messenger who is trying to keep sports reporters honest.

      LG is not against anyone or anything except dishonest sports journalism.

  12. KC

    tigersbrown2: The next two games will be wins for Weeden. The Raiders and Chiefs have really bad teams. I believe McCoy would win against these two. However, I hear what you say in waiting to see how Weeden improves through the whole year. My problem is the teams he has played this year are worse then the teams McCoy had to play against last year. Weeden should have beat the Eagles the first game, however, that was his first game. But when he played Dallas he should have made some improvement but it was the same Weeden; he looked the same as when he played his first game. But we should be happy as the Browns will win the next 2 games. That will make us winning 5 games this season, more than what most people thought.

    • tigersbrowns2

      hi KC … even though it looks like we should win these next 2 games , nothing is a given with this young squad. i am hopeful we continue to see improvement from the entire team.

      i still believe these last 5 games will have alot to say about weeden’s future & the browns qb situation going forward.

      have a good one …

  13. marty

    The browns beat a dead dog in the road of the NFL schedule.Denny Dice could of been the QB of the browns, the browns would of still won. The game was won in the trenches. I didn’t like weedon as a pick, I would of loved a receiver pick first.Weedon hasn,t showed anything as a QB. Well I take that back he is taller than Colt. Tools of a QB can be improved if the basic parts are there. A good QB has to have heart and passion for the game. That can’t be taught or bought at a store. The browns did improve in areas, but took a step backwards in leadership. All because of guilt, pride, embarressment, and admitance of wrongdoing by management. The fans got cheated out of what they wanted. Weedon gets a F as a QB. Shurmur gets a 0 for his knowledge, and his lack of inspiration. If weedon has tools of a QB, I haven’t seen them yet.

    • ABrown

      Good point, Marty. Leadership and heart are the basis for a real quarterback. And I’m glad you mentioned the coach and management trying to get back at McCoy because they mishandled his concussion and were thoroughly embarrassed when they got reamed by the league inquiry. That’s what made Weeden the starter.

  14. ABrown

    Dave J, you talked about Weeden’s ability to sustain drives and you wanted specifics about what McCoy has done to show he’s a good QB.

    Weeden sustain drives?? Did you watch that film you paid for? This year we can’t convert on 3rd downs. 18% in Sunday’s game, and we rank 30th in the league in converting 3rd downs. That is NOT sustaining drives.

    Now we will hear that Shurmur calls bad plays. OK, I agree, but then every QB who plays for Shurmur should have the same problem. Two of the three do — Weeden and Wallace both average around 30% conversions, which ranks at the bottom of the league.

    But McCoy, working with a crippled offensive line, injured running backs and the same bad coaching, led the Browns to rank 12th in the league in 3rd down conversions in 2011.

    Ranking 12th is better than ranking 30th, but when you separate out McCoy’s play from Wallace’s, McCoy is converting 39.7 or roughly 40% of his third downs and would have ranked 11th in the NFL.

    Why? Because McCoy ramps his play up a level when a play has to be made. Ten percent of his conversions even went for touchdowns. And he was 8th in the league on 4th down conversions.

    In contrast, Weeden’s play in clutch situations — on 3rd downs or in the red zone or when we are tied or one score behind — drops and his passer rating and completion % dips below 40. Look at his splits.

    Meanwhile, in 2011 McCoy was tied with Tom Brady and Matt Ryan with the 5th highest number of Game Winning Drives.

    Clutch play is probably the single most important characteristic of successful NFL quarterbacks. These guys have a wide range of arm strength, and some can run for TDs while others just learn to move enough to avoid sacks. They can be different heights, but they all play better in clutch situations.

    Colt McCoy plays better in clutch situations.

    • Bob

      Hi ABrown – Great Post.

    • Dave J

      ABrown! Thank you! Finally an argument that makes sense and doesn’t just say McCoy has a better football IQ!

      Yes, I watch the film. The receivers struggle to get open, I will admit there are times where Weeden doesn’t see somebody down field but the same could be said for all QBs. But Josh Gordon quits on routes, Little is inconsistent and MoMass has to actually stay on the field. I think the most polished route runner on the team is Norwood but his ceiling is limited.

      As far as the clutch play is concerned, I agree one hundred percent. When we need a play to be made (3rd down, etc) Weeden does crumble. However, you can present me with all the stats in the world. We are still talking about a four win football team with either McCoy or Weeden. Until ONE of these guys is given a fair shot we are going to have more of the same. And by a fair shot I mean the entire city not calling for the backup to be the starter because of injury.

      And to your point on McCoy being in the same category as Brady and Ryan, I’m not arguing it but we don’t have the talent or leadership surrounding our team that either of those guys do. You need more than one great QB to make great plays. The QB stirs the drink, but you need a drink for him to stir.

      I appreciate your thought out argument. I’m not trying to be sarcastic or a jerk when I say that either.

      • Dave J

        And to be fair, every QB also didn’t have to deal with the play calling system of Shurmur and Childress. Josh Cooper has said he doesn’t know who calls the plays. No, he is not an every down (or even every other down) player but this is a guy who plays on offense. How does he not know who calls the plays? Throw all the percentages at me you want, but here is how it goes for Weeden. Play clock starts as he hears both Shurmur and Chilly in his headset. They discuss what play to call (not one person saying run this play) Weeden has to get it in after hearing all that, line his guys up and then try to break down the defense. That’s not putting your QB in the best position to succeed.

        • ABrown

          Dave J, you’re definitely right that the past Browns management groups haven’t put a solid effort into building a good team or hiring the best coaches.

          With an absentee owner, I think the Browns franchise looked like a nice home with vacationing owners to a set of burglars.

          But the problems you point out were problems for McCoy, as well as Weeden, and in some important cases were worse for McCoy.

          This year, Weeden has definitely had more time to get plays off and he has often taken too much time. That left receivers finished with their routes and trying to figure out where they should go next. Some times he misses the chance to hit a receiver in a perfect sight lane and waits until it’s too late for that route to work or goes to his check down receiver when it’s too late for that play to work.

          Last year with a crippled right tackle, McCoy didn’t have the luxury of time to make that kind of mistake, and McCoy never had trouble being decisive. But he was faced with receivers who didn’t have the speed to get open, whether they could run the routes or not. And Little is much better this year than he was last year as a rookie.

          McCoy had much less to work with last year and a whole offense that was struggling with Shurmur’s “special” approach. Yet he managed to get his team into a position to win 7 out of the 12 games he was able to finish, and in the 13th game, he was on the Pittsburgh 6 yard line driving for a go ahead score when Harrison knocked him out with a vicious illegal hit.

          And through most of 2011, McCoy was still a ROOKIE, who had to change offenses half way through his rookie season. McCoy proved that he had the mental toughness and quarterback talent to do more with less.

          I’m afraid Weeden is showing us he is able to do less with more.

          • Dave J.

            Nobody is arguing that Weeden has more available to him than McCoy. Is it fair to McCoy? Not at all, but things aren’t going to be fair for a third round draft pick.

            To your point about being in position to win games with McCoy, we’ve been in position to win almost every game with Weeden under center this year, aside from NYG and Philly (close in Philly but Weeden couldn’t throw a golf ball into a lake in that game).

            McCoy was not a rookie in 2011. I understand that it was his first year starting from the onset but he wasn’t a rookie. That’s like saying Aaron Rogers was a rookie after he sat behind Favre.

  15. Leon II

    The evaluation of 2011. McCoy lacked protection, the O-line couldn’t open holes for the run and when they did they weren’t exploited, and the receivers couldn’t catch the ball. McCoy didn’t have an off season to learn the system of a new head coach, who was very rigid, conservative and predictable in play calling, and was clearly overwhelmed by trying to be a rookie head coach and offensive coordinator. McCoy showed heart and mobility but not the ability to open the game up with his arm. Perhaps that was because he was still nursing an injured arm. But let us keep in mind he had a great defense, faced a relatively weak schedule and still only won 4 games last year all of them against teams at the bottom of the NFL. If I recall correctly one of those games was primarily won by the defense and the other by Dawson’s leg. When McCoy was openly offered for trade during the draft and throughout the off season 31 other teams passed on him.

    Now in the interest of full disclosure this was my opinion heading into the draft in regards to QB. I wanted to keep Colt, thought he had was a decent option to start in 2012 if necessary, but felt he was ultimately destined for the role of backup. I never liked Wallace and wanted him gone feeling he was making too much for a mediocre back-up. I wanted the Browns to draft someone who could either take the starting job from Colt or develop behind him.

    My evaluation of the draft prospects was that I saw Luck and RGIII as upgrades and the Browns should grab one of them if they got the chance. Sadly they didn’t have the opportunity to draft either but I was glad we didn’t offer more to StL than the Redskins offered (Browns had/have too many needs to have offered more). Tannehill I didn’t want. I saw him as somebody’s first year starter and that at best he would struggle hard but more likely bust. So far I have to say I was more wrong then right on that one. Foles, Cousins, Osweiler, Lindley and Wilson (in that order) I saw as late 2nd to early 4th round projects who could eventually become starters and the Browns should draft one of them to challenge and probably sit behind Colt this year. If they beat him out great but more important in my mind was that they beat out Wallace and develop. Weeden I saw as a second round pick who would beat out Wallace and probably replace McCoy mid-season if the Browns drafted him. I expected him to struggle, especially under Shurmur’s rigid approach to the WCO once he got the start but ultimately an upgrade. We all know what happened in the draft and offseason.

    So to the evaluation 0f 2012. Weeden has had good pass protection but holding penalties have negated many of his best completions. The running game has improved but not tremendously as the O-line still struggles to open holes and until Smith replaced Marecic there was blocking out of the backfield. The receivers have struggled with running clean routes and catching the ball though improvement is beginning to be shown. Weeden had an off season to learn the system but the entrie offense has had to deal with overly complicated play calling system Shurmur put in place with Childress. Weeden has had to deal with Shurmur’s offensive system that is conservative and predictable. Worse yet for Weeden and the offense Shurmur continues to view his players as chess pieces that must rigidly perform according to his rules rather than adapting his offense to their strengths. Weeden has looked like a typical rookie starting from day one not a savant like Newton, Dalton, Luck and RGIII. But let us keep in mind Weeden has also dealt with a defense that isn’t nearly as good as last year’s due to injury and suspension, has faced much a much stronger schedule and still has won three games all three against higher ranked opponents. True only one win can be credited to Weeden but that was against Cincy who is in playoff contention. Keep in mind the Browns have five more games this season in which to rack up wins.

    So to all the McCoy haters and lovers. He was and is decent, and probably would have done no worse in the W/L column this season as a starter. He also probably wouldn’t have done any better either. The actual teams won against and lost to may have been different but in the end this is a team sport, the team itself is young and mistake prone on both sides of the ball and McCoy isn’t an elite game changing QB or one of the other 31 teams would have traded for him. Still the Browns are lucky none of the other 31 teams wanted him in the off season because he is a much better back-up and better team player then Wallace ever was at a much cheaper price.

    To all the Weeden haters and lovers. He is an average, not savant, starting rookie QB who has a potentially elite arm that has seldom been seen do to typical rookie mental errors that 90% of rookie QBs make in their first season. At this stage he is not an elite game changing QB and he damn sure isn’t going to overcome the overall inexperience of the team and raise them up. If he can overcome these mental errors he could develop into a franchise QB but that takes time on the field, not the bench. There is just as good of a chance that he won’t develop into a franchise QB, but guess what 11 games with an inexperienced team, a confusing and cumbersome play calling system, conservative and predictable play calling, and a rigid coach who won’t adapt to his players strengths isn’t enough time to determine that either.

    Now if you are angry because Weeden hasn’t lived up to the hype then you are an idiot and don’t live in reality. The majority of rookie starting QBs struggle as much or more than he has. A rookie QB with the least experienced offense AND defense in the league and Pat Shurmur as HC isn’t having a winning season – shock.

    For those of you who say he is 29 and should have been more mature and ready – again you’re an idiot. Whether he is 22 or 29 or 35 it doesn’t matter – this is his first year in the NFL, he is a rookie and chances were he probably was going to have a typical rookie season made more likely given the youth of the team and the rigid nature of Shurmur – period end of story. For those of you who say his MLB career should have made him more ready, again you’re an idiot. Last time I watched a MLB game I didn’t see a single person rushing the pitcher and the catcher wasn’t running down field. You really think starring down a batter made Weeden better prepared to deal with Von Miller rushing him or Ike Taylor trying to prevent him from getting the ball to Josh Gordon.

    Of course I’m an idiot for thinking that anyone is going to read this an respond logically.

    • Dave J

      Leon II you can’t see me, but I’m giving you a standing ovation right now. Beautiful. Absolutely perfectly said. This is played out and not a fair comparison but Peyton Manning had a very frustrating rookie year. It worked out fairly well for him. To anyone that reads this and thinks I’m saying Weeden=Manning please don’t waste my time with a response. Leon II, well said my friend.

    • ABrown

      Leon II, an assessment is supposed to be objective, yet you condemn McCoy for a losing season and excuse Weeden for having one — very strange assessment.

      If you are going to write an apology for Weeden, just focus on that and be honest about it.

      It’s unfortunate that you use the examples from baseball to defend Weeden’s status as a true rookie football player. You chose the very differences in his 2 sport experience that are his biggest problems as a QB.

      You say he never saw anyone rushing the pitcher’s mound, and that’s true. He has more trouble than most rookies dealing with the pressure of a pass rush and still looks like he would rather turn around and run the other way.

      You say staring down batters didn’t help him complete passes. True again, but that’s exactly what he continues to do — stare down his chosen receiver, tip off the DBs, and miss the other open guys. (see Cleveland Frowns, “X’s and O’s with the Bros” on Weeden missing open receivers)

      And in baseball, he could take all the time in the world to look at where he was going to throw a pitch. And in football, he’s still doing it. Indulged by a desperate coach, he’s been allowed to take 5 to 9 seconds behind surprising O-line protection to decide to throw the ball.

      That dawdling in the pocket apparently stopped this week. Weeden finally started acting like he knew he had to make a decision in 4 seconds. He still sometimes took 5 or 6 seconds to get rid of the ball, but that was a step in the right direction, toward doing what every other QB is expected to do from his very first game.

      Despite all this time and protection on the quarterback mound, and despite how much we have heard about his strong and accurate baseball arm, when Weeden tries to throw a pass over 15 yards down field, his completion percentage drops to roughly 25%. But he’s a rookie, you say. So what if he can’t do what all the other rookies can?

      So I guess you are saying that his experience in baseball is a HANDICAP and means he will take MORE TIME to develop than the other rookies who are 22 or 23 years old.

      And we’re all IDIOTS for thinking this could be a problem??? Interesting article. . .

      • Leon II

        ABrown – You missed all of my points. So let me spell them out.

        Point 1: McCoy is a solid upper mid-tier QB. He could lead a veteran team with a solid O-line, some elite offensive weapons, and a top ten defense to the playoffs but that isn’t the 2012 Browns.

        Point 2: McCoy didn’t demonstrate in the preseason that a healed shoulder had resulted in his developing into an elite level QB that could carry an inexperienced team with weaknesses.

        Point 3: Thirty-one other teams saw McCoy the same way as I do as evidenced by their unwillingness to trade for him though it was clear he was available until Wallace was cut.

        Point 4. Therefore, the W/L record wouldn’t likely be much different given what McCoy would have had to work with at his talent level.

        Point 5: If we couldn’t get one of the two elite QB’s prospects in the draft (Luck/RGIII) we should have drafted a back-up to replace Wallace and sit on the bench to learn.

        Point 6: Unfortunately, we drafted Weeden higher then we should have and given that draft position, and likely pressure from Holmgren, Shurmur was pretty much left with no choice but to start Weeden and let him develop on the field.

        Point 6: The 2012 Browns still lack the experience and have too many weaknesses as a team to overcome the mistakes that will be made by the typical, rookie QB.

        Point 7: Given that the FO and HC decided to start him day one and give him the proverbial baptism by fire the only option is to keep starting him. It takes a least a full season to truly evaluate the potential of a typical, true rookie starting QB.

        Point 8: As their isn’t a clear Newton/Luck/RGIII QB in the 2013 draft we have to be damn sure Weeden isn’t the answer before we give up on him because once you bench a true rookie they are done. That takes at least a full season, minimum, sometimes more.

        Point 9: Weeden’s only plus upside to McCoy coming in this year was his potential elite arm. Unfortunately, rookie mental mistakes of a true, typical rookie starting QB means that the arm will seldom be demonstrated in season 1.

        Point 10: Despite all of the hype, nothing in Weeden’s past – his age, his MLB career, nor even his college career were indicators that he would be anything other than a typical, true rookie starting QB who would struggle his first season. If you bought into Holmgren’s hype and believed Weeden was going to be a Luck/RGIII and lead us to the playoffs this year then I’m sorry but you were deluding yourself.

        So I’m still trying to figure out how this was a condemnation of McCoy and making excuses for Weeden. What it should be read as is my honest opinion of the reality of the situation the Browns are in and how they got there. It is also an honest assessment of how we proceed given the situation we are now in given I thought came out of some serious mistakes. I will also say it is a condemnation of the unrealistic expectations of some fans who are the type to stand in front of a microwave getting angry because it takes two minutes to cook a hot dog.

        • LG

          Hey Leon, I have a problem with Point 2: McCoy didn’t demonstrate in the preseason that a healed shoulder had resulted in his developing into an elite level QB that could carry an inexperienced team with weaknesses. What preseason games were you watching? The ones I saw certainly showed a much stronger armed Colt McCoy who could lead his team down the field and get to the end zone…The Problem is Shurmur didn’t want McCoy showing up his handed picked boy Weeden so he limited Colt McCoy….

          • Leon II

            LG – I watched every preseason game more then once. I will admit my Point 2 is a matter of opinion. My opinion I saw the McCoy I have always loved since his college days play as good as he ever has but I didn’t see anything elite in his arm. I thought he showed improvement but not to the elite level. You saw something different – not a surprise considering if you asked 5 pro-scouts to evaluate Colt McCoy’s preseason performance you would probably get 5 different opinions as well. Let’s be honest if evaluating talent were a perfect science and not just a best guess we would never have seen JaMarcus Russell taken as the first pick of 2007 or Tom Brady not going until 199 in 2000.

          • LG

            Well Leaon if you didn’t notice a much stronger McCoy are then you must have a vision impairment. Lots of people noticed it. As far as scouts go have you ever read the scouting reports on Weeden before and after the Senior Bowl?

        • ABrown

          Leon II, there’s been a lot of misinformation put out by Shurmur and others about McCoy. As a result, people often don’t see what is there to be seen.

          Here are the numbers from the preseason games Weeden and McCoy played in back in August –

          Weeden had 3 fumbles and 1 interception. He completed 49% of his passes for a 6.1 yard per attempt average. His passer rating was 59.7.

          McCoy had no fumbles, 1 touchdown, and rushed for an average of 9.7 yards per carry. He completed 75% of his passes for a 9.75 yards per attempt average. His passer rating was 119. When you look at yards per completion, McCoy averaged 13 yards which is about as high as that figure gets in the NFL.

          McCoy had a 50% higher completion percentage, a 50% higher y/a, and 100% higher passer rating.

          But Shurmur said Weeden won the “competition” and lots of people believed that.

          If you look at rookie stats, McCoy’s 7.1 Y/A beats Weeden’s 6.2 yard average. McCoy’s 11.7 yards per completion beats Weeden’s 11.1 yard average. McCoy completed 60.8% of his passes for a 74.5 passer rating and a 45 Total Quarterback rating.

          Weeden has completed 55.9% of his passes for a 70.9 passer rating and a 21.7Total QB rating.

          Comparing the first 11 games for each player,
          McCoy has thrown and completed 18 passes of 20 yards or more, but Weeden has completed only 15 long passes. For any passes longer than 15 yards, Weeden only completes 25 % or those while McCoy is good on roughly 40%.

          Finally, McCoy has accomplished something only one other rookie quarterback has been able to do.

          Since the ESPN Total Quarterback Rating system started being kept in the 2008 season, only 2 rookies have played so well in a game that their performance ranked in the top 10 of all quarterback performances for their rookie year (512 performances). Those 2 were Matt Ryan and Colt McCoy.

          It won’t be clear until the end of the season, but Luck and Griffin have a pretty good chance of joining Ryan and McCoy this year.

          McCoy’s Top 10 performance in 2010 was a 34 to 14 defeat of the New England Patriots, when he completed 14 of 19 passes for a 73.7% completion percentage, 9.16 yards per attempt, and a101.6 passer rating. He didn’t throw a TD or an INT, but he ran 16 yards for a TD when his pocket collapsed and the team gained over 400 yards of total offense.

          Very few QBs, rookie or not, play that well against the Patriots.

          Pat Shurmur has gone so far as to alter the stats for long passes and claim that Weeden has thrown 27, just one less than Luck. And he started this can’t stretch the field talk when McCoy was throwing off balance and rushing his throws, behind a collapsing line, in what was a terrible first season for Pat Shurmur. So Shurmur decided to blame McCoy for his plays and scheme not working. That led to need a QB who can throw long, and so on.

          McCoy was projected as a first round pick during his junior yr in college, but after his injury in January, when he was being evaluated in the spring, his arm wasn’t as strong and his draft stock dropped.

          Leon, I got started and went on and on, but I sincerely believe that McCoy is a better QB than Weeden and has a chance to be a very successful QB in the NFL. His arm is not as strong as Weeden’s but he can complete the long passes he throws and he has a lot more arm strength than he is given credit for.

          The most important quality McCoy has is his ability to deal with pressure and elevate his play to make the plays that must be made to win. He’s a clutch player. Obviously, he can’t do it all, but he’s been identified as a leader by his team mates on every level, including here in Cleveland, and players tend to play better for him than for other quarterbacks.

          And one last thing, the Browns management never intended to trade McCoy. The teams that tried to start trade talk could never get a price and came away the trade rumors were bogus. If Holmgren had wanted him traded he would have been gone, so forget that nobody wanted him. It’s a lie.

          • tigersbrowns2

            hi ABROWN … set me straight … but , wasn’t mccoy playing against 2nd & 3rd stringers in the pre-season until the last game ??

            have a good one …

          • LG

            Weeden didn’t play in the preseason against all starters either….

          • Old Coach

            @Tigersbrowns2 That may be true but McCoy was also playing WITH the subs. He didn’t have the advantage of first string protection. Also, Weeden played quite a bit against second string defenses as well. That much is fact.

  16. KC

    RB – Weeden will be the Brown’s QB. I just wished the Brown’s could have waited for a better one. I do not see them getting rid of him, however, I do not see him becoming a winning QB either. I hope I am wrong, I can remember the Brown’s being in the top of the league way back them. They were respected by all the teams. It seems like that has been so long ago. And I am not at practice, however, leadership is shown while in action and I personally have not seen leadership from Weeden on the field in a game situation. To me he just does not take charge and move the team with the authority that good QB’s have. Let’s just be happy for the next two wins that the team should have.

    • Bob

      Hi KC – Do you think any other team in the NFL would bring back their starting QB if he was ranked 30-32 out of 32 the previous year?

      • ABrown

        Good question, Bob. It hardly ever happens, and there are 4 or 5 quarterbacks this year who rank above Weeden who probably won’t be starting next year.

    • Leon II

      KC – I didn’t and still don’t mind that the Browns took Weeden but where they took him and that he was starter from the onset. I also would have been just as happy with Foles, Cousins, Osweiler, Lindley or Wilson. For me the issue in the draft was not replacing McCoy in 2012 but Wallace. I thought any of these 6 taken in the second to fourth round as McCoy’s back-up this year and hopeful replacement in 2013 was necessary. The problem was Holmgren (and I do think it was his decision) pulled the trigger too early at 22 with Weeden hoping he would get lucky. Unfortunately, that put the Browns in the position of having to start Weeden this year instead of letting him develop for at least a half season behind McCoy. When you look at the 2013 draft class there are no definite upgrades to Weeden and McCoy so like it or not one of the two, most likely Weeden will be starting again in 2013. Hopefully, Weeden will have overcome the rookie mental breakdowns or Colt’s arm really is stronger and one of them can lead us to a winning season.

  17. marty

    Dave J, you stated you wanted facts between Weedon and McCoy. How can you neglect the fact that the Browns was the worst offensive line last year as 32nd. They average 1.9 sec. of protection. 2012, they are #1 in QB protection with a 4.5 secs of protection. That was a average three or four weeks ago. There is plenty of times that protection was at 7 sec. By the style of play between Weedon and McCoy if that QB protection was reversed it would of been a huge difference in the game. Weedon last week was sacked three times. at 3 sec. , 4 sec. , and 4.5 sec. Now how would Weedon be with 1.9 sec. average time of protection. He would be a spot on the grass.

    • Dave J

      Marty, yes the Browns struggled with the O-line last year. It was because of a career ending injury to Eric Steinbach and a rotating door at left tackle. All that does is further prove my point that WRs are not getting open for Weeden. The offensive line also played much better as the year went on in 2011, however McCoy did not show much improvement with the improved protection. Also, where are you getting these facts and times from? Interesting. Still doesn’t change the fact that WRs aren’t getting open regularly or consistently.

      • Dave J

        The only reason I question your ranking is I was looking into O-line stats the other day and found something that said the Browns ranked 16th in pass protection. Here is the link (sorry for using another site LG hope you are cool with it).

        • ABrown

          Dave, this is an interesting site I’ve used before, but with any compilation of stats, some important distinctions get lost.

          For example, in run blocking in 2011, the Cleveland line is ranked at 13th just ahead of Houston at 14th. And Cleveland is listed as the 2nd best team in the league in 2011 in not letting our RBs get stuffed at the line of scrimmage. But Cleveland ranked 32nd in rushing and Houston ranked 1st and also tends to do a very good job of protecting their QB and opening holes for RBs.

          There’s something wrong here. Perhaps in the not stuffed category the Browns gave up on running up the middle and so avoided stuffs.

          The difficulties in ranking pass blocking are a little easier to track down and explain. The wild card is quarterback mobility because the ranking is based on sacks.

          Romo is one of the very best in avoiding sacks, but the Dallas line has serious problems which don’t show up because Romo isn’t sacked as much as a non-mobile guy would be.

          Vick is a great example. Until the last few weeks before Vick was knocked out with a concussion, he was poorly protected and often running for his life. But the Eagles’ O-line was ranked in the middle of the pack. Nick Foles is far less mobile than Vick and since he’s been starting the Eagles O-line has dropped to 27th in the league.

          McCoy, like Romo and Vick, avoids a lot of sacks that would nail a less mobile QB. So a rating system based on sacks, won’t be that accurate until there’s a mobility distinction. If the Eagles line protecting Vick this year ranked 17th and the Cleveland line protecting McCoy or the Cowboy’s line protecting Romo ranked 16th and 14th, Those are all comparable situations.

          The Cowboys, Eagles and Browns lines were pretty bad, but didn’t rank bad, until in the situation with Vick and Foles, the stationary QB started behind the line and it dropped to the bottom of the league.

          You can evaluate lines pretty well with Weeden because he’s mostly a stationary target. With the 2012 line ranking 5th in the league in preventing sacks, we can be confident they really are near the top of the league.

          With the 2011 line ranking 16th, we can assume they would rank close to the bottom of the league, without McCoy escaping so many sacks, just as the Eagles line dropped this year.

          Our offensive line was close to the bottom last year and close to the top this year.

      • ABrown

        Dave J, just when I was thinking you knew something about football, you come up with a statement like this:

        “The offensive line also played much better as the year went on in 2011, however McCoy did not show much improvement with the improved protection.”

        Are you saying Tony Pashos was really a force on the right side??? Then why isn’t he on the team this year? Why did he spend 9 years in the NFL and only started in 3 games for Jacksonville before coming to Cleveland in 2011?

        I guess he was SO GOOD the other teams were saving him. . .

        Anyone who watched those games toward the end of 2011 saw a deteriorating offensive line, not an “improving” one and saw McCoy getting beaten up so badly that it was often hard to watch and ranked as some of the worst breakdowns in protection that I’ve seen since I started watching pro football as a child in 1960.

        Maybe you do know football, Dave, but just can’t remember it objectively when you are trying to win an argument.

        • Dave J.

          Wow, no need to be a dick about things first of all.

          I don’t think I said anywhere that Tony Pashos was good. I said we had a rotating door at left tackle, which I meant to say right tackle. However, the guards on the interior part of the line (Lauvao and Pinkston specifically) played better as the year progressed. Tony Pashos is a joke of a lineman, even when he was healthy. I watched him actually fall down when somebody took a step towards him last year. So no, Pashos didn’t help anybody. But the play of Pinkston and Lauvao did improve.

          I’m glad you’ve been watching pro football since you were a child in 1960. Have you been a condescending prick since then too?

          • ABrown

            Dave, I can honestly say that I have never been a “prick” since I’m a woman. But I am tempted to be condescending when I see someone be so careless with the facts in trying to win an argument.

            You clearly said the line was improving. Don’t try to slip out of that mistake by saying you meant the young guards were playing better. We had a collapsing right side of the line that got worse and worse as the season went on. And you clearly knew about Pashos.

            How dare you try to say McCoy had a strong line when he was getting beaten up every week and try to say he didn’t get better even as the line supposedly did??

          • LG

            Abrownn it is like all these people have amnesia from last season, they don’t remember Hillis was upset about a contract, the receivers couldn’t catch a cold, the line didn’t give MCCoy nearly the time weeden has had this season and we could go on and on about how much worse Shurmur was last season….Nobody wants to admit to any of this……

  18. Dave J

    LG, I can’t reply to your response to me earlier for some reason. I’m not sure whether you’ve actually said McCoy is better than Weeden or not but by the things you say that is sure what it sounds like.

    Everyone can throw around all the stats they want to, if I look hard enough I can probably find stats that say the sky is green. It comes down to this, when McCoy was given a chance (22 games played) was he successful? Did he or didn’t he? The answer is no.

    To be fair, the same could be said about Weeden to this point but as Leon II said Weeden is a rookie QB doing what rookie QBs usually do.

    • LG

      RGIII is a Rookie Wilson is a rookie Luck is a Rookie and the list goes on…..Weeden missed the whole end zone on a simple touch pass in Dallas….

      • Dave J.

        I’m not sure what you are trying to say here. So RG3, Wilson, or Luck haven’t made bad passes?

        • LG

          Dave I am saying they are all rookies too and they play Better than Mr. Weeden for the most part. Wilson would have been a better pick than Weeden..

    • ABrown

      Dave J, you are already trying too hard to prove the sky is green and McCoy is a bad player.

      You’ve already jumped on the idea that he has now played in a 22nd game filling in on Sunday and adjusted his yards per game down from 205 to 195 by dividing total yards by 22 instead of 21. That’s pathetic.

      And you want to say Weeden is a rookie and that excuses bad play, but forget that McCoy was still a rookie in 2011 and don’t even want to compare Weeden to this year’s rookies because they play better.

      You’re trying too hard here to win an argument.

      • Dave J.

        Oh that’s right, they didn’t trust him to throw a pass in the game when he filled in on Sunday. Thanks for the help.

        McCoy was not a rookie in 2011. He was drafted in 2010, that was his rookie year. Anybody who has been watching football since 1960 should know that being a rookie means your first year in the league.

        I know I know, he only played half a year in 2010. That doesn’t make him not a rookie. I’m also not really trying that hard. What’s pathetic is you’re defense of a current backup quarterback and the notion that if he played this team would be in better shape. Maybe we should still wait for Charlie Frye to develop too.

        • ABrown

          Calm down, Dave. I’m just applying the Weeden supporters’ argument to McCoy. You guys just keep on insisting he needs to play his full rookie season — his full 16 games. If it works for Weeden, it works for McCoy.

          But don’t worry. You don’t have to be afraid McCoy will play next week and show up your guy like he did in preseason. Shurmur and Weeden are both desperate not to let that happen.

          BTW “you’re” and “your” are mixed up. And check out the Jacksonville situation or San Francisco, if you think a back up quarterback can’t be better than the starter.

        • Old Coach

          “They didn’t trust him to throw a pass…”? Perhaps they were trying to keep the clock running for a better chance at winning the game? An incomplete pass stops the clock you know. No matter who the QB was at that point I think it would be a save bet that they would be doing nothing but handing the ball off and keeping the clock running.

          • ABrown

            Good point, Old Coach. And they had McCoy take a delay of game penalty, too, to use up more clock.

            Problems with the offense happened BEFORE McCoy went in, when we almost lost a game that most teams would have found it impossible to lose.

  19. RICK

    Throw all the stats out there that you want but all your doing is beating that dead horse into mince meat. Maybe you get your wish on the QB situation and then you can come up with all the excuses and stats for what when wrong. Should of, would of, could of,and all of that nonsense. It’s a team effort. It seems like it’s never enough to win they have to get picked apart on what they didn’t do or should have done or could have done. All the crying won’t change the QB situation, it is what it is. If Naslam is unhappy with the QB situation he can change it but hasen’t chosen to do so yet.

    • LG

      Rick it seems like all the Weeden people are the ones that have to come up with a ton of excuses. Oh, the guy dropped the ball, oh the coach called bad plays and on and on and on….

      • Dave J.

        Weren’t Colt people coming up with excuses too, especially last year? Needs more talent. He also had the bad play calling excuse tied to his name last year. Not enough time, even though people are ready to run Weeden already. No training camp (valid, but still an excuse).

        Maybe the problem isn’t the QB, maybe the problem comes from a lack of stability and leadership from higher up in the organization. I’d be willing to bet both McCoy and Weeden would look much better with better head coaches, and all would benefit from not having to play for their job on a yearly basis and in some cases a week to week basis.

        • LG

          Hey did you watch the Browns last year Dave J? No Run game no receivers and no coach plus the lock out….

          • tigersbrowns2

            hi LG … hope all is well … nothin’ personal , but these sound like excuses for mccoy , don’t ya think ??

            what’s good for the goose …

          • LG

            I really don’t think so Tigersbrowns2. The fact of the matter is Weeden has is far better than McCoy had it last year and if Weeden had to play last year for the Browns he would be dead already…..The other teams D would have killed his immobile butt

        • LG

          Put Mr. Weeden in the same circumstances and lets see how well he would have been…Ya think he sucks now? If he played last year he would be out for the season….

          • RICK

            LG, There you go with the would of, should of, If, statements. The fact is we can’t go back in time to see what would of happened. Stats just state what happened in the past they can’t predict the future. (oh I forgot about the crystal ball so maybe you have an unfair advantage)I am not a Weeden fan (or people as you call it)but I do believe if you’re gonna try a new QB it doesn’t happen over night whether you’re a 29 year old rookie or a 22 year old rookie. Maybe you can put a good word in for Colt with Haslam and get him some playing time though.

          • ABrown

            Great point, LG! And I can hear all the excuses now, if the Weeden lovers had something legitimate to complain about.

  20. RICK

    ABrown, How do you figure Colt was a rookie last year? Didn’t they draft him in 2010? Better get the ole stat book out and check this one out for us.

    • ABrown

      Rick, I don’t need statistics for that just common sense. All this year you guys have been saying Weeden is a rookie and he needs to get to play all his 16 games he gets as a rookie.

      McCoy played 8 games at the end of 2010 and didn’t get to his 16th game, like you want for Weeden’s rookie season, until the Browns played Houston in November of 2011 — one of those weak opponents like San Francisco — you all dismiss in the 2011 schedule.

      Like you say, a QB can’t develop sitting on the bench. Mccoy’s just barely past his rookie 16 games.

  21. Bob

    Hi Rick – You said, “if you’re gonna try a new QB it doesn’t happen over night whether you’re a 29 year old rookie or a 22 year old rookie.” Here’s the thing, the front office told us that basically Weeden was NFL ready because of his maturity and basically gave us the impression that he did not need a learning curve because he was more mature then your typical 22-23 year rookie. That’s why so many of us believe that Weeden should NOT get a “learning curve” anymore as the starting quarterback. Now, I’ll give him a couple of games into a season, but that’s it. In fact, when one is the starting QB of an NFL team a learning curve should have happened before they got anointed as the starter. Just ask the 49ers coach. I have to say Weeden is the luckiest NFL QB right now. I’m sure Alex Smith believes that. Weeden stinks up the joint and still plays, he’s defensive & whines in the media. I am beginning to think he’s a Drama Queen – his moron statement, putting his teammates & Shurmer under the bus, retracting statements when he says he did well and did not. Not once did McCoy ever complain in public about any of his teammates, especially Little dropping so many of his passes last year. In fact, I believe that if Little caught half of McCoys passes last year, McCoy would be the current starter. Even Tomlin said after the Steelers loss that he was surprised that the game was so close after all the fumbles.

  22. Bob

    I know I wrote this already in a response above, but I feel this is important about Weeden doing some press last night even though he couldn’t do interviews per NFL rules about not being cleared to play:

    So where was Weeden last night? Resting his head? Studying the playbook? No, he was smiling and showboating for the cameras at the Cavaliers game. Should I accuse him now of not really being hurt, just like McCoy haters did when McCoy got injured in the Alabama game for the BCS Championship? I think I should. And what’s with “They had to hide his helmet because he wanted to get back in the game” story. Bull. That story was put out there to give us the impression he is tough. Mr “Fetal position” before he gets sacked tough? Really?

    • tigersbrowns2

      hi BOB … i heard he has been cleared to practice … when that was I don’t know.

      sound like you’re questioning his toughness now … not against the law to take-in a basketball game.

      • ABrown

        Great points, Bob, and I looked at the Anderson clip. Very similar behavior.

        TigersBrowns2, it wouldn’t be the first time Pat Shurmur skirted the league rules on concussions.

        But now, all you Weeden supporters can relax. You don’t have to be afraid of how well McCoy could lead this year’s team this week.

        Weeden has passed his concussion test and will play. Shurmur doesn’t have to push his mother over the cliff, yet.

  23. RB

    LG: You say Weeden missed a pass in the end zone on 4th and goal in the Dallas game, yet you ignore three things:

    1-He threw a touchdown pass with a little over a minute to go in the game to give the Browns the lead. He did what you say he can’t do – he finished the game.

    2-You failed to critique or even question why the number 3 pick in the draft failed to get into the end zone on 3 straight attempts from the one yard line.

    3-You failed to address why the new and improved line failed to get the number 3 pick of the draft into the end zone on 3 straight attempts from the one yard line.

    BTW, hope you all had a a great thanksgiving.

    • LG

      RB, do you watch any other NFL games or just the Browns? The reason I ask is I am wondering if you know how a good NFL Q.B. Looks those guys line up call a play then March down the filed they have drives constantly that are more than 3 plays at a time….Weeden isn’t the guy

      • Dave J.

        Because McCoy routinely marched the team up and down the field.

        • LG

          He certainly made it look easier in the preseason than Weeden did

        • ABrown

          Dave, remember that McCoy can consistently convert on 3rd downs. That’s what it takes to sustain a long drive.

          And who was it that said TR tried 3 times from the 1 yard line to score? You guys must not be watching the games. And someone bragged about Weeden throwing a last minute TD pass against Dallas. Did you notice that Dallas didn’t have all their players on the field and wasn’t lined up?

          It was a heads up play by Weeden to throw the pass when the Dallas D wasn’t ready, but it wasn’t show of great passing skill.

    • Old Coach

      Is it just me or do points #2 and #3 sound remarkably similar?

      • ABrown

        Yep, and no more correct as #3 than as #2.

  24. tigersbrowns2

    hi LG … well , you definitely found the HOT topic. maybe that is why you keep bringing it up.

    lots of good posts from both sides … neither side will budge. the here and now is weeden is the starter & if he wins-out or wins most of these remaining games EVERYONE should be happy , right ?? because we all want to see our beloved browns win , right ??

    what really matters is what haslam & banner think … and I do wonder what they are thinking.

    • LG

      Isn’t that my job. For each person that thinks Weeden is the guy there is one who doesn’t think so….

      • Dave J.

        You’ve definitely facilitated one hell of an argument LG, I’ll give you that.

        • LG

          That is why we are here…Bring out the best

  25. blackflag

    looks like weeds is back at practice so will likely play this weekend. whatever happens at the end of the season, expect McCoy to be back next year. why? he’s a cheap 3rd round draft pick and is a decent qb which means he has a spot at least as the backup.

    weeds though…he will probably be around too. now the new draft rules restricting rookie salaries helps but a few million a year may mean you keep weeds for at least two years before you go hunting for another qb.

    hmmm…problem with comparing present nfl to past nfl…it’s not the same. it’s a bigger business today than when Peyton started. call it the TMZ generation – teams expect a qb to perform when they are started. money is a huge factor in this. late draft picks (eg. wilson) might get more leeway than say Luck, Weeds, RG3.

    Weeds sorta ripping into the playcalling? well RG3 and Cam have made bad press conferences this season. Cutler is infamous for it. i know it’s not the same but let’s not even talk about Rapelisberger.

    my final few cents…mccoy’s family embarassed the browns FO. holmgren is old school and no coach likes being called out. heckert, the business man in this whole thing, got overruled. mccoy gets demoted.

    all qb’s need a good OL. mediocre qb’s need top talent in wr’s and rb’s to look good. great qb’s make anyone look good. so i will dip once into the past (ahem) compare the OL in 11 vs 12 and the talent in 11 vs 12.

    i look forward to some more wins this season. kc will not be a pushover but just like OSU could go 1-11 so long as the one win is against MI, the browns could lose all the rest of their games so long as they beat the steelers one more time…and next year…well next year the won’t let the ravens get away. i so want the brownies to crush the ravens (prob’ly more so than the steelers).

    so all in all…brownies may turn the corner this regardless of qb: good OL, good RB, seem to have found a good FB, TE’s are okay, WR corps still needs a stud, DL is good, LB corps still needs a stud, and another DB/S is on order. draft day – LB, WR, DB in that order

  26. southern hippie

    does anyone else look at the picture of Weeden in flag attire and think:

    redneck potsmoker

    not that the latter is a bad thing mind you

  27. marty

    Leon, you said that Colt was offered in a trade.There was nothing ever said by the other 31 teams. It was all heresay and speculation by media and shurmur. There was nothing official. I personally think Colt was blackballed by the browns. It’s obvious weedon doesn’t have the mental or physical toughness of a QB. If you think Oakland and Kansas City are easy wins, think again. I said after the raven’s game that Pittsburgh would be a dead dog. If you remember both Oakland and Kansas City out smarted our coaches in the past. Weedon will struggle with Oakland. Also, it was embarrassing to see weedon lay down curled in a ball before the defense got to him. There’s a word for weedon. SISSY!

    • LG

      Hey Marty your comment was the inspiration behind this article…..

    • Bob

      So funny Marty – Curled up in a Ball. He starts curling up in a bal before even touched. Perhaps he should move his A$% and stop being a statue.

      Marty – I absolutely believe that the next 2 games will be hard + playing in Oakland with that terrible field is no picnic.

      • Bob

        Sorry fat finger. Did not mean to send twice.

      • ABrown

        Bob, he does look like he wants to move but is frozen. Let’s hope he doesn’t unfreeze because he’s looking behind him and thinking about running away in that direction.

        Would that be a safety or a touchdown for the other team? Either way, a new kind of Weeden mistake.

        Being a rookie just doesn’t excuse all these mistakes anymore. Rookies aren’t this bad.

    • Leon II

      Marty, Clearly you didn’t read the Plains Dealer (also posted to the Official Browns Forum) on day one of the draft when Heckert came out and stated that trading McCoy would be discussed. In FO speak that is a clear statement of we will entertain offers but there isn’t anything specific we are looking for. If you don’t get that then you clearly don’t follow the draft the way I do.

      • LG

        He said that yes Leon, but then quickly backed off. The Browns were a nervous wreak for taking Weeden in the draft. Then after his first game in the NFL they nearly had a heart attack. Why do you think Homgren was tossed so quickly. Haslam could have waited til the season was over to dump him but with the Weeden pick Holmgren was shown the door early….

        • Leon II

          LG – It doesn’t change the fact that McCoy was put on the table. You say they quickly changed their mind, while I believe Holmgren would have made the trade right up until HIII told him he liked McCoy and maybe up until the point HIII actually took over. It also doesn’t change that fact (referencing the comments above0 that I’ve been saying all along that McCoy showed improvement (though you and I disagree on how much), that I have said all along this year McCoy should have been the starter to see just how much he had improved (he deserved the chance to prove himself), that I have said Weeden was taken too earlier at #22, and that I have said Weeden didn’t show anything prior to the draft or during the off season to demonstrate he was an elite rookie QB deserving to replace McCoy. What I have said is that once Holmgren, and I have always laid the blame at his feet, made the pick at 22 that put the Browns in the unfortunate position of pretty much forcing Weeden into the starting role before he was ready and that it is no shocker he has struggled as a result of being a typical, not elite, rookie QB.

          What we disagree on the most is this last point. You have decided he is a bust already because he hasn’t proven he is elite like Luck/RGIII or even above average like Tannehill/Wilson and should be benched in favor of Colt. I think he is typical and in the same vein of Foles/Lindley. As a result it takes more then 11 games to know for sure if a typical rookie who is going to struggle his first season has the potential to develop further. I’m not saying Weeden has that potential but simply the Browns are best served by being absolutely sure one way or the other before they make the final decision.

          Hopefully, now that we have got a real owner in place we will finally get a real coach as well who will in turn truly evaluate both of them and choose the better of the two for his offensive scheme cause their damn sure isn’t a clear Luck/RGIII in the 2013 draft. Hopefully, whichever of the two starts in 2013 they are starting because they earned the job in an honest competition. Hopefully, whoever starts in 2013 they put a lot more wins on the schedule then Colt did in 2011 and Weeden will in 2012.

          • LG

            No Leon that isn’t what I am saying. It isn’t just because he hasn’t played Like Luck or RGIII. It is because he doesn’t show the heart of a winner. And he is not going to fix that because you either have the heart of a fighter or you don’t. I think it is something you are born with….

    • Old Coach

      I read somewhere that at least 5 other GM’s in the league have spoken very highly about McCoy. Whether they tried to get him or not I don’t know. Only the people who work the phones in the Browns organization know that.

  28. ABrown

    RB, you said Weeden finished the game with that touchdown in the last 2 minutes. But he didn’t really finish the game.

    There was overtime, and the Browns defense stopped the Cowboys and got the ball for the offense — which then went 3-and-out because Weeden again couldn’t complete a pass to pick up a 1st down.

    The Cowboys FINISHED the game.

  29. RB


    Fair enough Abrown. Blame the loss on the “prevent” defense then. Still waiting for replies on points 2 and 3

    • ABrown

      RB, I went over this with you last week, but I’ll do it one more time. After that, you’ll have to watch the games more closely or go to the play-by-play in the game logs.

      We were 1st and 10 on the Dallas 23. TR gained 7 yards to give us 2nd and 3 on the 16. On 2nd down, TR was stopped for no gain.

      On 3rd down, Weeden completed a 10 yard pass to Watson to give us 1st and goal on the 6.

      TR was stopped for no gain on 1st down. On 2nd and goal from the 6, he ran for 5 yards to the 1. On 3rd and goal from the 1, Tr was stopped for no gain (the only time he was stopped for no gain on the 1).

      On 4th down Weeden threw a bad pass out of the field of play.

      Richardson made only one attempt from the 1 yard line, not 3.

      • ABrown

        Excuses, excuses. In overtime, the Browns went 3-and-out and the Cowboys scored.

        Are you saying we were in prevent defense when the game was tied in overtime?? I tend to doubt it, but if true, how incredibly dumb!

        Are you the one who thought we were in prevent defense the whole second half with only a 13 point lead over the Cowboys?

        • LG

          And Weeden missed most of the passes he threw too in the O.T. They weren’t even close then he threw a short one trying to get a first down. And people say Shumrur doesn’t trust McCoy to throw…How about letting Weeden throw from out of his own end of the field? What is Shurmur afraid of a pick six….?

          • ABrown

            Yes, he’s afraid of a pick 6. And for every one that W has thrown, DBs have dropped at least 2 more.

  30. RICK

    Looks like the Weeden haters might have to put up with another week without their savior. Looks like a another week of Weeden bashing in store. I can’t wait give us some early tidbits.

    • ABrown

      Rick, Weeden and Shurmur are breathing a deep sigh of relief and saying, “That was close, but we can fool those dumb McCoy haters another week.”

  31. tigersbrowns2

    good morning LG & ABROWN …

    i watched every one of mccoy’s starts & here is what i remember … he led well & played fairly well , but i can remember he always seemed to make at least one critical mistake near the end of close games that resulted in losses.

    they lost quite a few close games last year … the defense was ranked in the top 10 (i believe) & the offense never got it done in these close games.

    what is mccoy’s record as a starter , 5-16 ?? … i know ABROWN will advise me.

    the talent level on offense may be a little better this year , but the experience is not as evidenced by 4-5 rookies playing on offense on a regular basis.

    • ABrown

      TigersBrown2, last week you were trying to argue that McCoy had an advantage over Weeden because he had slow, no talent experienced receivers when Weeden is stuck with fast, tall, high-talent young guys.

      And then you crawfished when I mentioned Stucky and Robiske. Same thing with the offensive line until I mentioned Pashos.

      You keep throwing out the same mistaken “memories” and then forget that I showed you the mistake and start all over again the next week — amnesia??

      But you still keep trying to blame every problem on McCoy. Is Shurmur a relative or is he paying you?

      Take a look at the article about Phil Dawson’s missed field goals that I cited in the Sissy article.

      Even when McCoy was having to throw behind a collapsing offensive line with a running game ranked 32nd in the league, McCoy gave the Browns a passing game tied with Weeden this year or only one spot behind.

      McCoy converted 40% of this 3rd downs and ranked 11th in the league while Weeden is leading the team to a 30th ranking, while he is consistently ranked 32nd or 33rd (last) in the league as a QB.

      Weeden will always make more mistakes than McCoy, no matter how hard you try to change the situation. McCoy does More with Less. Weeden does Less with More.

      • ABrown

        Give this talented-rookies-are-a-handicap line a rest.

        Andrew Luck has just as many rookies playing with him on offense and it hasn’t held him back. He’s glad to have them.

        Think about this. When the price of being a Weeden supporter is that you have to come up with more and more feeble excuses every week, when does it become more trouble than it’s worth and not fun any more????

  32. tigersbrowns2

    sorry … mccoy is 6-15 as a starter. he started off 2-1 in 2010 & started off 2-1 in 2011 & then things went down hill from there.

    • ABrown

      Keep trying, TigersBrowns2. Things didn’t get really bad until McCoy got hurt and they put in another quarterback, last year and again this year.

      Just saw a NFL network spot on Julio Jones and how he’s going to be a big factor in the Falcon’s run in the playoffs this year.

      We could have had Julio Jones, but we took Weeden and Little instead.


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