By LG

Weeden Sacked By The FlagWell, no one said playing N.F.L. Football was going to be easy, for some they make it look easy, others like the Cleveland Browns 29-year-old Q.B. Brandon Weeden it hasn’t come easy. For each fan that thinks Weeden is the guy there are a few that say they don’t think so. One fan had this to say, ” There’s a word for Weedon. SISSY!” He must be talking about the fact that Weeden is afraid to stand in the pocket until the last second and take the big hit. Weeden has been described as easily rattled when it comes to pressure. Most fans see Weeden falls apart when faced with serious pressure. If the Browns opponent pressures Weeden at the start of the game, some say Weeden is shot for the day.

Lets take a look at Weeden’s numbers. I remember fans getting so excited because Weeden threw for over 300 yards. The fact is Brandon Weeden has only threw for over 300 yards 2 times in the 12 games he has started. If you take a look at Andrew Lucks stats you would see he has 4 games with over 300 passing yards and one game with over 400 passing yards. That’s a total of 5 games out of 12 where Luck has thrown for over 300 yards passing. Then we could talk about RGIII. He too has played 12 games and has 3 games over 300 yards passing, RGIII also has 642 yards rushing in 2012. Weeden has 72 yards rushing and Andrew Luck has 183 yards rushing….

Now lets look at wins and losses. Brandon Weeden has three of them in 2012, Luck has 7 wins, RGIII has 5 wins, Ryan Tannahill has 5 wins, Wilson in Seattle has 6 wins and he was drafted in the third round. Weeden was a first round pick 22nd overall…What a joke that is, the Cleveland Browns used a pick that could have been used on someone who could have helped the defensive secondary on Brandon Weeden who has 3 wins in the NFL…..Now lets talk about how many football games Weeden started where he has less than 200 yards passing…..Weeden has 4 games with less than 200 yards passing. That is double the games he has with over 300 yards. In the 4 games I am talking about Weeden has one with 118 yards,one with 129 yards, last weeks game where he was handed 8 turnovers by the Browns defense he only threw for 158 yards and in one other game Weeden had 176 yards.

Now looking back to 2011 Colt McCoy had a game where he threw for 350 yards against the Tennessee Titans and McCoy only had one game where he threw for less than 150 yards in all the games he played in 2011. If you look at the numbers I can’t really see how drafting Brandon Weeden was worth wasting a 22 overall pick in the 2012 draft. He hasn’t made the Cleveland Browns into a winning team and the fan who made this statement probably has a point…… There’s a word for Weedon. SISSY! That isn’t going help the Browns win is it???

We should have seen the writing on the wall when Brandon Weeden got sacked by the American Flag at eh Browns season opener.

 

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Readers Comments (144)

  1. muttklingon

    well i guss Brandon Weeden need stand in the pocket get beat down . and throw

     
  2. ABrown

    Good article, LG, and you raise a troubling problem. From what I’ve observed, this is a problem beyond Cleveland.

    Players all over the league judge rookies on how they carry themselves. Andrew Luck, for example, gets flattened by a defensive player, and he jumps up, helps the other guy up, and says, “Good hit!” And he gets respect.

    Something different is happening with Weeden, and I saw it pretty clearly in 2 back-to-back Cowboys games — the first with Cleveland and the second with Washington.

    The players watch film of their opponents each week and form opinions.

    When RGIII played the Cowboys, the defense was busting a gut to try to sack him or knock him down. But when they did, it was clear when they all untangled, the defense had a lot of respect for Griffin.

    The week before, when the Browns played the Cowboys, I saw something subtle, but different. The defensive players were talking Weeden up quite a bit, and I saw lack of respect like they thought he was afraid. One fan commented after the game that when the cameras showed Weeden on the sidelines, he looked like he was about to cry.

    I think the players in the NFL are seeing the same thing that was talked about in college. Weeden gets rattled under pressure. That looks like weakness and sets him up for more trouble down the road unless he can stop looking scared and bounce up like Luck and say, “Good hit!”

    But some people just aren’t wired that way.

     
    • LG

      Weeden is not going to bounce up ad say good hit. He is afraid and he can’t take those hits. The Raiders are only 3-8 too, they are going to be coming after B.W. Sunday

       
  3. Tom Wynne

    like having the right to vote…there should be a minimal competency standard/test all must pass before being able to talk football. Now I’m not talking about LG who is clearly knowledgeable(he just HATES Weeden and I hope his significant other gets him a #3 jersey for Christmas LOL)…
    sure, Weeden doesn’t look like Unitas (and maybe never will)…but 3-8 would be 6-5 with this rookie had the Browns fielded an NFL(and not an upper tier high school) secondary. If Sheldon Brown is starting next year…and they don’t draft help for Haden…speechless!

     
    • LG

      Tom Wynne, this is one of the reason’s I am upset with the Browns. Heckert knew the Browns defense were one or two guys away from being a great defense. SO what happens? He lets Holmgren order him into taking Weeden at the #22 pick. The Browns could have had the same kind of production that Weeden has given the team with McCoy at Q.B…Weeden’s numbers are not that much different to justify using a first round pick on him. If the Browns would have fixed their secondary you’re are damn right we would be winning football games….Weeden wasn’t the answer and his play really has not made a huge impact in the win column. The wins he has are mostly defensive wins….

       
      • tigersbrowns2

        hi LG … the browns had a top 10 defense last year & were at the bottom of the league in every offensive category … lost many close games because we could not move the ball on offense.

        what would be the most logical thing to be addressed as gm ?? …

         
        • LG

          You think it was all do to Colt McCoy? We lost two of those close games because of bad long snaps,we lost one of the games if not two because Shurmur couldn’t manage the clock and we lost one of those games because our top ten defense fell asleep and Marvin Lewis quick snap it in Cincinnati. So, how is that all becasue of McCoy?

           
          • tigersbrowns2

            nothing personal , my friend … but if we were talking about weeden , you & ABROWN would consider these nothing but excuses … correct ??

             
          • LG

            No I won’t but lets face it he isn’t the great hope they presented to us either…..

             
          • Bob

            Not to mentions games possibly lost due to “Loose Hands” Little. He was at the top of dropping passes last year which I believe really hurt McCoy’s overall stats. Could you imagine if he caught even half of the passes he dropped. Browns could have had a couple of more wins & McCoy would be the starter. I know, “could of’s” are not known for sure. But Little’s drop passes really hurt the team and McCoy’s job. Sure hope Little gives McCoy a generous Christmas gift this year.

             
      • ABrown

        TigersBrowns2, running back, offensive line, and defensive back. We were 32nd in rushing, had a disaster at offensive line, and we can see the defensive secondary. We also needed more speed and route-running ability at receiver.

        The offensive line is the biggest improvement on the team and is in the top 5 in pass protection. But we are virtually the same in passing with a QB who gets too much time to waste holding the ball, can barely convert a 3rd down (Browns are 30th in league vs 12th last year), and despite what we have heard about a big, accurate arm, can only complete 25% of his passes longer than 15 yards and completes fewer passes 20 yards and over than last year’s quarterback.

        The defense outranks the offense and has handed 3 victories to the Browns when the offense couldn’t sustain a drive.

        What we didn’t need is a quarterback who is doing less with more.

         
        • tigersbrowns2

          good post ABROWN … but remember , if the weeden backers are bringing-up inefficiencies , shortcomings or mistakes they are viewed as excuses by the mccoy backers … same here … regardless of the players / talent.

          good qb’s elevate the play of everyone around them & neither mccoy or weeden has been able to do that yet.

           
          • ABrown

            There are two kinds of elevating, TB2, and both are important in a great quarterback.

            1st, there elevating his own play when the game is on the line, on 3rd down, in the red zone or when the game is tied. Look at the splits in these situations or at the ESPN Total QB rating system which values clutch play like I mentioned over ordinary game situations. McCoy does this, even with a terrible team, and his QBR also reflects that.

            Weeden’s play slips at important times and his splits and QBR reflect that.

            The second kind of elevating is the one you mentioned — elevating the play of those around him. I haven’t seen this in Weeden either. I think it’s a little harder to evaluate with McCoy because there wasn’t as much to work with in 2011 and it took more to raise that performance, heavy lifting.

            But the passing rank for the 2011 and 2012 teams is tied or only one spot off. That’s elevating the 2011 team, not so much the 2012 team.

            And I’d say that anything that puts the 2011 team 12th in the league, like McCoy’s 40% conversion rate on 3rd downs did for that team is also elevating the play of the offense, certainly not to the Super Bowl, but if Peyton Manning was the QB for the 2011 team, I still don’t think they would have gone to the Super Bowl.

            I don’t really know how much McCoy can do in the NFL with a team that gives him half a chance, but Colt McCoy has elevated the play of those around him at every stage of his career, even the 2011 Browns.

             
        • tigersbrowns2

          LG … now that i re-read your post … no it was NOT all mccoy.
          what i meant was the OFFENSE needed to be addressed , not necssarily mccoy.

           
          • LG

            The Offensive play calling more so than the offense itself….McCoy could only do so much with those people and the new system….He really should have gotten the opportunity to play this season I’ll bet we would have won more games…

             
    • ABrown

      Tom, when was the last time you registered to vote? There’s no test. Any idiot can vote and any idiot can comment on football. Heck, with some teams, any idiot can coach the team. . .

      The quickest way to get this team to 6 and 5 is to swap out a quarterback, not a defensive back.

      The defense gave us the field position to win when we couldn’t move the ball, and if you look at the other games you guys want to say we lost because of defense — just not true — offensive mistakes are behind every one of those, except for that punt return for a TD in game 2.

       
      • LG

        Bravo ABrown, this is the post of the week so far…..LOL

         
  4. tongue_it

    Weeden is a waste of time talking about and i’ve been wasting my time talking about him. He is a bum and McCoy gets respect from his team unlike Weeden.

    McCoy would have won more games w/ the players we have right now but Shummur another waste of time to talk about.

    Poor coaching, poor judgment on draft pick, undisipline team far too may penelties.

     
    • ABrown

      Exactly right! McCoy’s team mates talk about and give interviews about how much of a leader he. The O-linemen talked in the summer about how sick they were when pick 22 was named because McCoy was their guy. Other players have talked about how well McCoy would have played this year and about how they expected him to have a breakout year.

      In all this year, even after new management said Weeden and Shurmur’s jobs were on the line, not one player praised the coach or quarterback.

       
      • Leon II

        Really ABrown, you need to start expand your reading beyond LG’s constant rants against Weeden.

        Posted at FoxSports and in numerous other sources this week – “Trent Richardson said. But I’m pretty sure Weeden’s going to be back. Weeden’s a warrior. He’s been around for a while, including to his age. But he’s a warrior. Weeden’s one of the guys that don’t want to get out. He didn’t even want to go out then.”

        On Nov. 17 video via the Plains Dealer of Trent Richardson, Joe Thomas, Ben Watson and Greg Little stating that Weeden had improved and would continue to improve.

        On Oct. 31 – “It’s been really encouraging with Brandon,” Browns left tackle Joe Thomas said. “He’s a kid that has really improved and played better every single week so far. Hopefully, we can continue that growth and that progress, because he’s come a long way already from where he was at the beginning of the season.”

         
        • LG

          Really Leon? You base your opinion on Weedens toughness on what Trent Richardson says to the Media? What else would you expect him to say the guy is a baby?????LMAO you killing me here Leon. That is just about as bad as having to listen to Shurmur telling us all how great the team battled…..

           
          • Leon II

            No LG I never said I agreed with them. I’m simply stating that ABrown was incorrect when she said none of his teammates have praised Weeden. I demonstrated she is wrong and that four: Richardson, Little, Watson, and Thomas all have. You gonna call Joe Thomas a crybaby LG?

             
          • ABrown

            Leon, you have a low threshold for “praise”. “He’s improved” — over the 5.1 passer rating?
            I guess that’s better than nothing.

            He’s a warrior, was fighting to get into the game and not let McCoy in and show him up? Damn straight he was fighting to get back into the game. Translatinon: “Weeden wants to keep his job.”

            And Joe Thomas calls him a “kid”. Joe Thomas is 2 years younger than Weeden. If I call someone a kid who is older than I am, that’s not a good sign.

            So the Browns trotted out some players to praise Weeden and they said: He has improved since the beginning of the year. He’s fighting to keep his job, and He’s immature. Wow!

            Here are a couple examples of what unsolicited praise looks like:

            Guard Steinbach “He’s taken on the leadership role and he’s not afraid to direct the huddle, take control of it. That’s what a real quarterback does.”

            TE Moore: “It was hard to even tell this was his first game. He has a way about him. He has a presence. He’s a natural born leader.”

            This year: “McCoy came back really strong this year. He was ready to have a breatout season with this team and really win games.”
            a player speaking at the risk of his job.

             
        • ABrown

          Leon, thanks for referring me to these videos, but it was a little sad when I watched them. These guys really didn’t have much good to say and they were struggling to find something positive.

          I don’t think they like Weeden very much.

           
          • Leon II

            No actually I see them for what they are and nothing more. I’m not going to argue that their praise of Weeden wasn’t as strong as given to McCoy by his teammates the year before. I’m not even going to argue that he should be praised. Whether I agree with or disagree with conclusion is also irrelevant. What I am stating is that your conclusion was based in part on a invalid fact. To be quite honest as a professor, as you are familiar with, I spend my life teaching students to be sure all their facts are relevant, valid, and reliable before they use them to support a conclusion and it irritates me when someone does otherwise. To be totally honest with you I also called you out because I have become irritated by your tendency to be condescending to people who disagree with you. You are more knowledgeable then the majority of fans who has considerable knowledge to share but in truth I would find many your posts more engaging if they were a bit less “Church Lady”ish in their approach. That is part of the reason I gave you some of the same attitude in one of my replies below.

             
          • ABrown

            Leon II, this is a reply to your comment just below where you begin by saying, “I see them for what they are and nothing more.”

            You are having some trouble with the difference between “fact” and “opinion”

            You believe your opinions are fact and everyone else’s opinions are irrelevant.

            Facts are things that can be verified and agreed upon. It’s a fact that players have made comments about Weeden and McCoy.

            But whether those comments qualify as “praise” is an opinion for both of us.

             
      • ABrown

        Ever hear of “damning with faint praise”, Leon?

         
  5. KC

    I agree with all of you, Weeden is not what Cleveland needed and what is so sad is that he will be hear until Shurmun is gone. I do wish Colt would have been able to play this weekend’s game just to see what he could do. However, I am sure he would have been given plays that would not make him better looking than Weeden. That is what I hate about the coach here. He is not interested in putting out the best we have to win games. He is so obsessed with Weeden believing he is the best for the Brown’s he will not make any changes no matter what the win / lose column states. I also know if he was to play Colt and find out he can play a better game he would look ridiculous at the mistake he made. We will never know who is better Colt or Weeden as I have said this coach will never play McCoy.

     
    • tigersbrowns2

      hi KC … c’mon man … do you really really believe that shurmur would purposely try to jeopardize a win just because mccoy was playing ?? that is so far-fetched it’s not even funny.

      have a good one …

       
      • ABrown

        Yes, TigersBrowns2. If Shurmur will make up stats, and lie to try to hang his bad coaching on McCoy, he’d do just about anything to keep that McCoy-can’t-play crap floating.

        The very last thing Shurmur and Weeden want to see is what McCoy could do with this team, weapons, and offensive line. No way Shurmur lets that happen.

        The Weeden supporters have been conned by Shurmur because Weeden is here to save Shurmur’s job. Winning is secondary.

         
        • tigersbrowns2

          puh-lease , sister !! … you are one of the most knowledgable posters on here & you are insulting your own intelligence with this post.

           
          • ABrown

            I never insult my own intelligence. I’m fond of it.

            If you think Shurmur has shown that he cares about winning enough to play the best players, adapt his rigid offense to the players he has or the teams he’s playing, figure out how to make half time adjustments, learn the NFL rules, or even get his QB to study film or learn the play book, then you have found the happy place.

            Enjoy it and don’t worry about what I remain convinced is true.

             
          • tigersbrowns2

            hi ABROWN … hope i didn’t come across as a weenie.

            i don’t know a coach alive , at any level of football , that is not trying to win every time out … to me it’s ludicrous.

            i do respect your opinion on weeden … i have said i will make my final assesment when the season is over. i personally think the browns are going to finish the season strong.

            have a good one …

             
        • Bob

          I know Haslam said he would not really do anything about Shurmer, etc.. until the end of the season and that probably includes Weeden. BUT, I have lost a bit of respect for the new ownership already? Why? For the players who are trying their best and risking injury due to playing with a low ranked pompous, defensive, scared, 29 yr old rookie QB, who would have been warming the bench already on any other NFL team. AND an awful “play calling” coach, who would have also been shown the door already if it was any other NFL team. It’s also not fair to paying fans having to put up with this BS. No wonder this team gets no respect and gets next to no coverage on ESPN.

           
          • ABrown

            Bob, this bothers me, too. I can only hope that he thinks the team will be ok, and he has to wait because he said he would, but has no doubt about how bad this coach and quarterback are. I guess we’ll see how much the new owner cares about building a winning team at the end of the season.

            I watched an NFL program about the 49ers owner, and learned that when he finally found Bill Walsh and was convinced he was the right leader and coach, he had gone through 4 other head coaches in 2 years.

            I think owners have to do what it takes until they get the right guy and not be afraid of change as long as the status quo is wretched.

            And a head coach who is less inspirational than a turnip is as bad as it gets.

             
  6. tigersbrowns2

    LG … then it would also be fair to say that any of the wins the browns had last year were mostly defensive wins … correct ??

     
    • LG

      Some were and some were not….Unlike this season were the defense won all of the games for the Browns

       
  7. RICK

    Wow somebody is upset that the savior might not start this week. Maybe he will get a chance sometime this year,untill then we will just have to listen to you rant. Hey it makes for a humorus day though.

     
    • ABrown

      Rick, here’s something you’ll enjoy — an article about last week’s win, in the light of turnover history:

      “The Browns, put another way, barely won a game Sunday that is virtually impossible to lose, clinging to victory in a favorable situation that a competent team would ride to a massive blowout.”

      Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/kerry_byrne/11/27/browns-steelers/index.html#ixzz2DY3aSdo4

      Barely winning, when the defense hands you eight turnovers — EIGHT! — is the definition of an offense that does less with more.

       
      • RICK

        WOW ABrown I’m glad you enjoyed the win. I know it’s hard to watch the games without your savior in there but hang in there and maybe he will get a chance this year to show you his stuff.

         
        • ABrown

          Rick, you seem to be all in for Weeden, no matter what.

          What I want is a team that is built to win and be consistently competitive. We’re not there yet on offense, and word is the defense is getting frustrated.

          It’s good to get a win and I’m proud of the defense. BUT when the offense gets a win handed to them on a silver platter and tries to send it back . . .

          The Browns need and deserve something better.

           
  8. tigersbrowns2

    hi , brandon weeden here … I have only one thing to say …
    I AM NOT A SISSY , DAMMIT !!!

    thanks to TB2 for letting me borrow his call-name for this post.

    sincerely,
    Brandon “i’m not a sissy” Weeden

     
    • ABrown

      Hey, Brandon, here’s what the Raiders are saying about you this week –

      “If the Raiders defense is able to bring pressure to the Browns rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden the Raiders could force some turnovers of their own. Weeden has been known to fold under pressure and throw some interceptions.”

      Every week this is what our opponents say about you, that you “fold under pressure”.

      That’s NFL code for “sissy”.

       
      • tigersbrowns2

        dear ABROWN ,

        the raiders will not sack me more than 2 times this week. let ‘em come … so you know , this will be my break-out week. i have been reading your posts & i’m out to make you a believer.

        and remember, i am not a sissy.

        sincerely,
        BW

         
    • Bob

      Study the playbook and get off the computer, “Mr. Defensive”

       
  9. longhaul

    if by some chance mccoy was to be put in the game you would see the leadership he has. but that will only happen if weeden cant walk. shurmur in no way shape or form will play mccoy because he would make things happen. and that would make shurmur look more like a fool than what he is already.weeden is not a terrable qb but he is not a starting qb or a leader. guess thats why him and shurmur get along. neither one are leaders they are just wanta bees.

     
    • ABrown

      Good point, Longhaul. No inspirational leadership there, and the new sheriff in town says he’s looking for leadership in key positions first of all.

       
  10. RICK

    LG, Its seems like your blaming the wrong people here. You keep ridiculing Weeden when he didn’t draft himself too early, he didn’t make himself a starter, he didn’t draw up the game plan, all he is doing is what the Brown management tells him to do.Put the blame where it is needed (oh thats right you need people to read your negative articles to keep your job) People have called you a moron on here before does that make you a moron? Your article was well written this time though,KUDOS but it looks like something that ABrown might have written for you this time.

     
    • LG

      You forgot one thing Rick, he isn’t the Q.B. they thought they were getting either….

       
    • Abrown

      Rick, if I call you a moron, will that make you one? Probably not.

      If a sissy falls in the forest, did anyone sack him? Probably not. He falls down before he is sacked.

      The best reason to criticize Weeden’s quarterback play is that he’s really bad. The best reason to criticize Shurmur is that he is inexcusably bad.

       
  11. RICK

    I didn’t forget,but I guess thats his fault to. Your still blaming the wrong person for this mess. Put the blame where it belongs. Haslam is the owner now I haven’t seen a change yet so who knows. I guess he might be your next person to blame.I’m not sure if Weeden is what they thought they were getting either. I haven’t talked to them about it lately.It’s the coaches decision I guess he’s not listening to you rant enough.

     
  12. RICK

    I’m glad ABrown cracked the NFL code for us. That’s been bugging me for awhile and now we know.I Believe the Raiders have enough to worry about with the turovers they have had lately. Palmer has really looked sharp this year as a veteran QB.LOL

     
    • ABrown

      You’re welcome, Rick. I try to be helpful.

       
      • ABrown

        Yes, Palmer is having a sub-par season for him. 18 touchdowns and 12 interceptions, 60.4% completion rate, 7.1 yards per attempt, and a passer rating of 84.1.

        No way he could start for the Browns. We prefer 12 touchdowns and 13 interceptions, 55% completion percentage, 6.2 yards per completion and a passer rating of 70.9.

        Our offensive line and defense can make the difference for us if we don’t make too many mistakes.

         
  13. ABrown

    The Weeden supporters cling to the fact that McCoy didn’t win many games and still hoping Weeden will catch up.

    So when someone suggests that McCoy could have won 3 or 4 more games and gone 7 and 6 or 8 and 5, there is FEARFUL AND OUTRAGED objection that these are just excuses and W could have won other games, too, if he hadn’t thrown a bad pass or an interception, if he had only converted a third down, if Little were 8 feet tall. . .

    But when we talk about last year, we’re mostly talking about missed field goals.

    Here’s the link to an excellent article defending Dawson for missed field goals in 2011 that truly were not his fault and would have changed the outcome of games:

    “In defense of the great Phil Dawson,” WaitingForNextYear
    http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2012/1...

    If it were any other kicker, I wouldn’t take it so seriously, but Dawson has been like money in the bank. It’s foolish to dismiss this article.

    Read about how the Browns last year would have been over .500 with McCoy and a typical kicking game.

     
    • Leon II

      LMAO ABrown. that is your support of McCoy now – it’s Dawson fault. Really? Dawson caused McCoy to have fewer wins – that’s your excuse now. Really? Dawson, the most consistent scorer on the team, who won the game against Seattle (6-3) in 2011 with two field goals (from 52 and 53 yards I might add) is to blame because he said so. All that shows is that Dawson is the consummate pro willing to take the blame when in truth the 2011 offense was ineffective in getting the ball in the end zone and he was truly the lone bright spot, again. There is plenty of blame to go around for the 2011 but Dawson’s misses are not the primary reason we lost those games.

      And before you and LG once again accuse me of being a Weeden apologist let me again remind you that I have always said:
      1) Weeden shouldn’t have been taken at 22,
      2) McCoy deserved an honest competition,
      3) McCoy should have started because Weeden wasn’t ready,
      4) Despite the hype some stupidly bought into Weeden has looked exactly like the typical struggling rookie QB that we should have all expected,
      5) Weeden might not (in your and LG’s he won’t) pan out as a franchise quarterback,
      6) Holmgren was an ass (to the team, the fans, and even to Weeden and McCoy) to push Weeden to start when he wasn’t ready, and
      7) Shurmur is an idiot.

      None of those mean you can rewrite history so that McCoy was an elite or even above average QB in 2011. None of that; nor all the biased use of statistics, poor science, name calling, and anecdotal evidence you two keep throwing out, means any of us can say with certainty how McCoy would have done this year or that Weeden will bust. We will never know what the season would have been like with McCoy because it didn’t happen. The jury will remain out until he either proves that he can be at least above average by leading the team to a winning season or gets benched permanently. It will be people far above mine, ABrown’s and LG’s pay grade who will ultimately decide to give him more time or bench him and trust me – they damn sure aren’t following the views of this site.

      So before LG responds with one of his typical “Jane, you ignorant slut” replies to my post let’s say what it does mean. LG and ABrown will continue to bash Weeden with more rancor then carefully considered debate and champion Colt. I will continue to call them out when their arguments stray into the completely ridiculous diatribes they are prone too. LG and ABrown will resort to name calling and misrepresenting my statements when I do. I will continue to wear the Colt McCoy jersey I purchased on the day of his second start in Week 7 of 2010 when he led us to an upset victory over the Saints and remember that day fondly. And finally all of us will continue to hope for that magical season last seen in 1964 when the Browns last won the NFL Conference Championship game, but this time we will be able to call it a Super Bowl victory.

       
      • LG

        Looks like you have 1-7 right Leon. But let me tell you something. ABrown is no dummy. She knows football and the stats better than most. You think you’re dealing with someone who just makes up Leon. ABrown was a college Professor for years and has worked with professional athletes like the Great Earl Cambell, this lady knows football Leon. Be sure to treat her with the respect she well deserves. Not saying you’re not but just wanted to let you know ABrown is a highly intelligent football fan. Better than most….

         
      • LG

        Leon, When did I call you names? I don’t recall doing that at all….BTW I see you were a SNL fan too…..Great show back in the day…..

         
        • Leon II

          Yes LG I was/am a huge fan of the original “The Not Ready For Prime-Time Players”.

          As for name calling there have been at least three occasions when you have “nicely” referred to me as basically a dumb ass when I have called you, or someone whose position you supported, out on a statement.

          As for ABrown I don’t disagree that she knows her stats and NFL history quite well. I have never said she is a dummy but then neither am I. I will openly admit I don’t have her experience working with a great like Campbell but I have played the game, coached the game at the youth level, studied the game as a fan and social scientist for decades, and have worked with the barely known Undra Johnson – see if you can find him – lol. I will also state that as a college professor myself with over 20 years of experience I would state then one of the “pseudo academic bibles” that sits on my shelf is Darell Huff’s “How to Lie with Statistics”. The great thing about statistics is that they can be used to support any position. She is very effective at arguing with them as any academic should be able to do. But I will challenge her when she uses them in a way that in my opinion is a reach for her conclusions. I’m an academic and as you once said – arguing a point is what I do.

           
          • LG

            Well if I did call you a dumb ass Leon I apologize….Not remembering at the moment but you don’t seem like the type that would make it up. Sometimes I am under extreme pressure….BTW were you being a Dumb ass? LOL

             
          • LG

            Ya see that Leon I get it….”arguing a point is what I do.”……Not bad for a guy who don’t know S#$t I got it….It is great to argue points…..

             
      • ABrown

        Leon II, sometimes it is better to think, listen, and read before you write.

        If you had taken just a few minutes to move to the Phil Dawson section of this website and read the article, you would have saved yourself from going off half-cocked.

        Did you notice that the title was “A Defense of the Great Phil Dawson” His bare stats for 2011 had him kicking only about 83% of his attempts and that one stat was used by a commentator to criticize Dawson. The article explains what happened on each of those misses that made it not Dawson’s fault. The author also makes clear how many consequences can come from something as simple as a bad snap and argues that several losses would almost certainly have been wins.

        The author also gives credit to the deep snapper for having the strength of character to not let Dawson be blamed for mistakes not his own.

        I had no intention that my post would make you look like a fool, but you were so anxious to attack me without Knowing what you were doing that you did it to yourself.

        Think and read before you write and you won’t be so likely to totally discredit yourself and waste everyone’s time with an almost endless “ridiculous diatribe” as you call it.

        Frankly, you really don’t sound like an academic. What is your field in the social sciences? Where did you get your doctorate? And where did you teach?

         
        • Leon II

          And so ABrown replies with the “Jane, you ignorant slut” retort with name calling and attacking my academic credentials – LMAO.

          Your statement was – “Read about how the Browns last year would have been over .500 with McCoy and a typical kicking game.”

          The article, which I read both when it originally came out and again when you linked to it, reaches a conclusion that is opinion not fact. Your conclusion, based on that opinion, states McCoy WOULD have been over .500. Prove it. Oh, I’m sorry you can’t because the season is over and you can’t replay those games. Your conclusion is opinion not fact and that was my objection to it.

          Let us look at one of Colt’s better games of 2011 that resulted in a loss but could have been a win if Dawson had made his final (5th) field goal attempt. The game I am referencing was against the Rams (one of only two teams to end with a WORSE record then we did). The kick was missed due to a bad snap – fact. But even had the kick been made would the game have been won by the Browns? If the kick had been made the Browns would have been up by two, a one possession game, with only a field goal needed for a one point win by the Rams.

          The Rams got the ball back after the failed kick with a little over two minutes to go and not needing more points they ran out the clock. But had they needed points on the board for the win did they have enough time to get the minimum 3 they needed for the win? Of course they did as evidenced two weeks ago when we watched Tony Romo drive the Cowboys down the field in just over a minute to put up 3 points and tie the game.

          Now let me point out a few other facts of the 2011 Browns vs. Rams game. A fumble by Josh Cribbs on a return near the end zone early in the fourth resulted in a Josh Brown field goal giving the Rams the lead. McCoy had one of his better games going 20 of 27 for 218 yards, yet he failed to put the Browns in the end zone. Ogbannaya had a slow start but a solid second half finishing with 90 yards on 19 carries yet he never found the end zone. Change any one of these FACTS and the outcome in terms of W/L might, and I stress might, have been different. But it wasn’t because McCoy couldn’t close a drive, Ogbannay never found the end zone, and Cribbs fumbled – all facts.

          The 12 points the Browns had on the board with a little over two minutes to go were ALL a result of Dawson converting a stalled McCoy drive into a field goal and points on the board. McCoy only contributed to helping keep the game close by getting Dawson in range. He didn’t put a single point on the board. Dawson was the one who actually made it close though.

          If McCoy had completed that final drive in the end zone instead of failing to convert on third down again the game COULD have been a 19 – 13 win. It at least would have made it more difficult for the Rams to wins with just over two minutes to go as it would have required a TD not a FG to win. Keeping everything else the same had McCoy been able to drive the Browns down the field and into the end zone on just one of the four drives that ended with a Phil Dawson field goal the score COULD have been 16 – 13, two of the them 20 – 13, etc.

          But then again how would the dynamics of the game changed? COULD the Rams have stepped up to the challenge or not? COULD the Browns defense been able to meet that challenge or not? It is all conjecture and opinion as to what could have happened in that game and over the course of the 2011 season not fact. Yet you ended your post by stating “would have” instead of “could have”. Again, prove it. You can’t because it is your opinion based on supposition, not fact.

          And that Church Lady is my problem with your post.

           
          • Leon II

            Oh and I will find it interesting to see if LG suggests you should treat me with the same respect he suggests you deserve.

             
          • RICK

            Once again LEON your are spot on with your comments. Peolpe like to go to the past and and predict what “could of”, “should have”, happened but the game is played in the present. You are right about the stats, they can be manipulated to prove anything you want to try to prove a point. I believe it is a team sport and the chemestry is the most important part. On paper there are a lot of teams that should have won a suprbowl but the team didn’t gel for what ever reason and that can be a number of factors because they are human and not machines.

             
          • ABrown

            Leon, I didn’t attack your academic credentials. I just asked what they were.
            And you get defensive and won’t answer that question.

            I did say you don’t sound like an academic. And you have supported that by being unwilling to even name, let alone talk about your specialty, or name the school where you did your graduate work. I’ve never met an academic colleague so anxious to claim academic status but so shy about sharing your credentials.

            Now, here’s what I did with that post about the field goals.

            After every game this year, the Weeden supporters have led with how he could have won “if”. Even after the first game, we keep hearing how that would have been a win for Weeden if receivers had caught just one of his off target throws.

            And one of your buddies chimed in that McCoy lost every game last year with some 4th quarter mistake — no evidence, just claim.

            So I GAVE YOU BACK YOUR OWN ARGUMENT, with a much higher probability because of Dawson’s accuracy.

            But you EXPLODE. . . can’t use that argument EXCEPT to support Weeden.

            We have also heard vicious unsubstantiated name-calling used to attack McCoy when no verifiable evidence could be found to support it. And have seen the same McCoy haters determined to ignore measurable performance figures that continually prove them wrong.

            And what is the profound response? We can’t use statistics like percent of 3rd down conversions when anyone who wants can check the figures.

            Your feeble response is not to check the accuracy of the numbers but to throw out the idea that people who disagree with you can lie with statistics.

            The book you say you keep close is still used sometimes in Freshman English classes to teach critical reading — not how to lie — but how to spot the misuse of numbers and demonstrate flaws in arguments.

            Another flawed argument you use a lot is the ad hominem or against the person, where someone who can’t argue against a claim attacks the speaker instead.

            What we’ve learned from this is that you have no problem COMMITTING logical fallacies but object when they are used on the other side of the argument to make a point. If there aren’t accurate statistics that support Weeden, you try to make your readers afraid of numbers.

            If you don’t like what someone says you respond with name-calling, bullying, and interminable posts.

            And then your final, big, knock out punch is to call me a “Church Lady”?????

             
          • LG

            ABrown, for a social Scientist Leon is a little touchy….

             
      • RICK

        Great post Leon I think you have the LG & ABrown team figured out. For some reason they think if you bash somebody enough it will change the thoughts of the management. If Haslam is unhappy with his QB situation then he will be the one to make the change and all of the ranting in the world won’t change a thing.

         
        • ABrown

          Rick, it’s not bashing to link a quarterback with his box scores and achievements. I’m sorry your guy doesn’t have very good numbers, but those numbers are not lies.

          If you can’t defend his performance, don’t think you can make it all go away by attacking people who point out Weeden’s very real problems.

           
  14. longhaul

    doesnt take much of an education to figure out shurmur has no clue and needs to go. maybe uncle mike can introduce him to jerry jones. stop and think about that for a moment 2 goofballs trying to be leaders

     
    • ABrown

      Longhaul, funny image and good post. As for Shurmur, anywhere but here.

      And you are right about education. It doesn’t equal intelligence. I’ve know a lot of educated people who didn’t have a once of common sense. And I’ve known people who have very little schooling but are smart enough to be rated as a genius, like Edison and Franklin, for example.

       
  15. Wane

    GREAT POST Leon ll, not only the best post of the day (maybe all year)

     
  16. tigersbrowns2

    good morning ABROWN … TGIF …

    since I know you know , you said above “the defense has handed weeden 3 wins” … how many did the defense hand mccoy in his 4 wins last year ?

    the defense looks awesome right now with taylor, rubin & haden all in there … but , they were not good at all in games 2 , 3 & 5 of this season. and we all know how absolutely horrible weeden was in game 1 & the defense played good & kept us in the game … but, they also gave up a 94-yard drive in the closing minutes to give-up the lead. this is the flip-side of what you’re saying about the defense.

    it’s still is , & always will be, a team game … it takes playing well in all 3 phases of the game to win. so , i will not agree with anyone’s assesment that “the defense won the game” , or “weeden lost the game”.

     
    • LG

      Hey Tigersbrown2 You like to keep the pot stirred don’t ya

       
      • tigersbrowns2

        hi LG …

        yes , but with all due respect … i’m here to represent the opposing point of view … that’s all. the mccoy backers are looking at weeden with blinders on … nothing will ever be good enough. i guess the same can be said about the weeden backers.

        have a good one …

         
        • LG

          We are looking for a winning team. We don’t currently have one.

           
          • tigersbrowns2

            be honest …

            we are 3-3 in the last 6 games … one of the losses was 17-13 to the colts & one was the overtime loss to the cowboys. weeden has more td’s than int’s in these 6 games … taylor , rubin & haden are all finally on the field at the same time & the defense is playing really well … same goes for the offensive line.

            this is improvement & all signs are pointing to a strong finish … would you agree ??

             
          • LG

            This is indeed a good sign. As far as a strong finish goes, I think it all depends on how Weeden responds. The Pressure is going to get worse and he folds under that…The Chiefs may kill Brandon Weeden they beat the hell out of 2 Steelers q.b.’s

             
          • ABrown

            That’s right, LG. And we’ll never get one with a head coach who starts the player who loses the QB competition and then props him up all season by insisting we see him with blinders on — blind to the big picture of performance that always ranks last in the NFL

             
    • ABrown

      TigersBrown2, you are nothing if not inconsistent. A couple of days ago, you were blaming all the losses last year on McCoy.

      And you keep asking the same questions. I answered you questions about what you called defensive losses maybe a month ago and you agreed then, but here you go again.

       
  17. KC

    Hey I know this is old stuff and am not sure anyone is still talking on this site but Alex Smith of the San Fran 49′d is up for a trade for next yr. Maybe the Brown’s should take a chance with him. I do believe he would be a good fit for the Brown’s. The big problem is really good QB’s will have nothing to do with the Brown team, but we should give it a chance.

     
    • ABrown

      KC, I don’t think that’s completely played out yet in San Francisco. If he is up for trade in the off season, Smith will probably look very closely at the head coach and offensive line.

      We’re good with the line, but no one would want to play for the current coach after playing in San Francisco.

       
    • Bob

      Noooooooooooo . The QB “every year” strategy from Lerner should stop now. McCoy & Weeden both need another year under a different COACH. There are other positions that need to be taken care of first. COACH is #1 priority. The team is already use to McCoy and Weeden. I strongly believe McCoy is the better of the two though. Whoever the new coach is should play the QBs strengths not get a new one.

      I will tell you this much. Smith, Flynn & McCoy (if Weeden anointed again) will be hot commodities next year for teams in need (KC, Ariz, Phil, NY Jets, and maybe Buff & Jacksonville)

       
      • ABrown

        I agree on all counts, Bob. We desperately need a new coach, we have at least one good quarterback on the roster, and we have better uses for a top draft pick.

        If we don’t get a new coach, we’ll have more years of being the same old Browns. . .

         
  18. tigersbrowns2

    “the pressure is going to get worse ” ?? … weeden has already faced the ravens twice , the giants feared d-line , the cowboys front-7 & the steelers.

    the raiders & the chiefs aren’t going to do anything weeden or o-line hasn’t already been up against.

     
    • LG

      Tigersbrowns2 did you watch the Chiefs play the Steelers? If you missed it believe me when I tell you this none of the teams you just mentioned had any pressure compared to the Chiefs…Plus Romeo will want to make a statement too…

       
      • Bob

        … and Hillis and Quinn and Daboll. People have to remember Big Ben, who is one of the toughest QB’s in the league is out because of KC. Do I want Weeden hurt NO WAY. I don’t want anyone hurt. I just think that the Raiders & Chiefs are fighting to keep their jobs and these will be 2 of the toughest games this year.

         
      • tigersbrowns2

        i saw the game … they played hard … and they did bring alot of pressure … but the o-line has played well lately minus all the holding calls in the 2nd half against the steelers.

        have a good weekend …

         
  19. tigersbrowns2

    hi ABROWN …

    i am truly wondering if you have seen the improvement the last 6 weeks & if you think the browns are going to finish strong …

     
    • ABrown

      TigersBrowns2, I’ve seen the defense playing well most of the year, and the offensive line staring out playing well and steadily improving.

      In the last 6 weeks, Richardson is running better and the receivers are much improved and catching just about anything anywhere close.

      Weeden has been inconsistent all year. His best game was against the Colts in Week 6, but his 2nd best was against the Bengals in week 2, while his 3rd best was against Dallas last week. But in the last 6 weeks, he’s had 3 of his worst games. The only games worse were in the 1st and 4th games of the season.

      And several important offensive rankings have dropped in the last 6 weeks, as well.

      Like LG said, a lot depends on how many mistakes Weeden makes game by game and how he handles the increasing pressure from Shurmur, desperate to get him to play better, the new owner who hasn’t bought Weeden as the future yet, and opposing defenses with the game plan to put the ball in Weeden’s hands and pressure him to make mistakes.

      That’s my opinion with plenty of facts to back it up.

       
      • Anonymous

        good post AB … we’ll talk again on Monday.
        have a good weekend …

        GO BROWNS !!!!

         
        • ABrown

          Thanks, Anonymous.

          GO BROWNS111

           
  20. Tom Wynne

    I think Weeden would look a little better if the inept play calling didn’t hang him out to dry with 2nd and long/3rd and long obvious pass situations. It would be nice to see something other than Richardson up the middle on 1st down for a gain of 3…

     
    • Bob

      Mix of inept play calling and the fact Weeden is NOT a good closer or clutch player. The 4th qtr and 3rd qtr are usually his worse. In fact, I think Weeden has never closed out a 4th qtr well when behind or tied. That’s because he’s terrible under pressure.

       
  21. Jeremy

    So neither McCoy after starting for 1 1/2 yrs, or Weeden starting after 11 games is good enough… go figure. Say what you will, but McCoy’s numbers from last year are very similar to Weeden’s this year, with no real discernibly differences. The Browns have a good chance to get two more wins in the next couple of weeks, which would be fantastic, and I could care less who the QB is, a win is a win, unless it is against the steelers and their number 1 ranked defense. Big Ben was hurt, not their entire D line, who got ran all over. How did McCoy fair against the steelers last year? Honest question… was he that much better? Did he lead ANY td drives? Regardless of field postion, the steelers d is damn good… and what other qb could have done better against them… Vick? no.. Dalton? no.. E. Manning? no… oh must be Flacco? no again.. But MCCOY! he could have done it for sure! Come on guys.. call it what it is, either option is not the greatest, and Weeden still has the better upside IMHO, as well as many other fans and pundits… But hang your hat on Colt… Whatevs.. I just want to win, and could care less who starts at QB.. Just win…

     
    • LG

      If you think about last years Thursday night Steelers game it was Hillis who couldn’t run into the End Zone for a touchdown on three tries after McCoy drove the Browns right down the field… The Browns should have won that game…..Haden slipped and fell and a 8 yard hitch pass went for 78 yards for the Steelers..

       
      • ABrown

        And in McCoy’s last game against the Steelers, he was leading a drive down the field that started around our 20 and got to the Pittsburgh 6 driving for a go-ahead score, when a vicious illegal hit to the head knocked McCoy out of the game with a concussion.

        Shurmur sent him back in illegally, but even when a quarterback is as tough as Colt McCoy, no one plays the same when they don’t know what year it is, and Colt threw an INT on the next play. But even with a concussion he still converted on 50% of his 3rd downs.

        I think Jeremy found an article by a Shurmur PR agent over at Fox.

        But it’s hard to argue that a TD drive from the Pittsburg 10, or 31, or a FG drive from the Pittsburgh 30 or 40 is sustaining a long drive.

         
        • LG

          You’re right ABrown. People don’t remember none of that game. You would think they are the one’s who suffered a shot to the head….

           
          • ABrown

            Now that would explain a lot, wouldn’t it?

             
  22. KC

    I stated before Weeden and the Brown’s should win these next two games. These are two teams that have bad records. Our defense will destroy the O-line and Palmer will have a hard time. The defense is what has kept us in the games this year. Weeden if you are looking at these statements as you did yesterday let me please make this statement to you. You said “the Raider’s will not sack me more than 2 times” I hope you thank your offensive line for saving you so often, please give them the credit as they deserve it. I hope you do not believe it is all your doing for not getting sacked? Then you stated “this will be my break-out game” this is what we mean when we make statements about your leadership. Making that kind of statement makes me feel that you lack confidence in yourself and I believe that calling you a “sissy”, is what they were referring to. You know many people will criticize the way you play. I can imagine how tough a job the QB has; thousands of people will talk good and bad about you whether you like it or not. That is the job you signed up for and are getting paid for. True leaders know and believe in themselves and do not have to come out to defend themselves to people and their comments. In this coming game against the Raiders remember it is a team game, thank your offense for allowing NO sacks of you and the defense for helping the the Raider’s for not scoring too many points. And Weeden go out and take charge, provide the LEADERSHIP and CONFIDENCE needed from a QB.

     
    • LG

      Weeden really said all of that? Come on man you have got to be kidding me. If he thinks the Raiders can’t get to him he is sadly mistaken….

       
  23. ABrown

    Bob has brought us full circle here with the central problem. Weeden is terrible under pressure.

    It was in the college scouting reports, in the NFL draft analyses, and it’s repeated with each new defensive game plan for the Browns in the NFL.

    And it’s clear in splits or breakdowns for play in different game situations and in the ESPN Total Quarterback Rating which values plays differently according to “clutch” factors or how important plays are to the outcome of the game.

    Weeden is terrible under pressure, and that doesn’t earn respect in the NFL.

     
  24. KC

    Well Weeden stated he believes he will only be sacked twice. I was just referring to his lack of confidence in himself. He should of stated I plan on not getting sacked. The Raider’s defense has gotten really weak this year so I am not sure how Weeden will do. The Raider’s site states it will be raining this weekend and believe that gives Weeden and the Brown’s the advantage. They also said since their defense has gotten weaker they are worried about stopping the running game of the Brown’s. We will see but I do believe this is a game the Brown’s will win and the Chief’s, man if Weeden cannot beat them he will seal his fate for next year.

     
  25. Leon II

    To ABrown. Yet again you adopt an arrogant, sarcastic, belittling, condescending tone that lacks a true response to the point I raised. You have habitually done this to myself and other posters who challenge you in anyway. You use thinly disguised, and not so thinly disguised, personal attacks on others and then point the finger at them when they respond in kind.

    Why defend my academic credentials to someone who already posted (I believe it was last week) in a derisive manner that (to paraphrase) – if I was an academic I must be a social scientist? Why defend them to some one who has already made it clear to everyone in her opinion I’m not an academic or if I am my credentials are inferior? Your opinion of me is clear and what your opinion would be of my credentials is also clear. Are you really surprised that I want to maintain a level of anonymity with complete and total strangers, especially those of your ilk?

    Most significantly though is that your opinion of yourself is clear as well. Therefore, I will give you my opinion of you again. You see yourself as just a wee bit superior to everyone else. Your “fondness” of your intelligence is well documented. I’m sorry but if the smug look fits then wear it as you do your Enid Strict “Superior Dance” in front of the computer as you hit “submit comment”. Of course my opinion of you likely matters as little to you as yours of me does to me. Frankly, you are irrelevant.

    @LG. I thought you and I had reached a point last night in which we had both agreed to disagree on some points while still respecting the others ability to present relevant and insightful discussion of topics. It appears I was mistaken. Whether you realize it or not your post of “ABrown, for a social Scientist Leon is a little touchy….” came across to me, and I would think to others as well, that you support her statements that I have “made a fool of myself”,I “discredit myself” and her opinion that I am a liar regarding my status as not a former, but current, college professor. Your failure to respond to her escalation of personal attacks on me, especially considering I blatantly asked “Oh and I will find it interesting to see if LG suggests you should treat me with the same respect he suggests you deserve.” only confirms the appearance that you are agreeing with her and I am in your opinion a fool, not creditable, and a liar.

    I’m beginning to find Cleveland Sports 360 a very uninviting place for anyone who doesn’t agree with ABrown. That’s sad. I was really looking forward to engaging you in further debate as what the future of the Browns should be. I was looking forward to coming home from work tonight and suggesting some topics of discussion. Now I’m not sure if it is really worth my time.

     
    • LG

      Leon, I think it is difficult to translate what people write on these posts. I by no means meant to infer you are a liar. I don’t think you are a Liar. I just meant to say you seamed a little touchy…..Is there something wrong with that? I think you bring in heated discussions to this board and you have your points…….Don’t take this so much to heart Leon it is football we are talking about here. Not open heart surgery. What happens on this board of on the field shouldn’t change our lives…..

       
      • Leon II

        You are absolutely correct LG this fan board is irrelevant to my life except as a source of amusement. However, I will always be touchy about being called a fool and a liar. Enough of that though.

        What I had actually hoped to post last night to this site was to pose a question to you in hopes you might run a story on it for discussion. What is your grade on J III’s ownership to date and what do you think this means for the future of the Browns? I thought his interview with the MJC of the Plains Dealer on Thursday gave some interesting glimpses of what the future might hold. I’m curious to see your take on this.

         
        • LG

          I think for the first time in a very long time the Cleveland Browns have a owner that actually cares about the team and the future of the team. The shame is the ownership exchange took place in the mist of the season. Had this been an off season tracnsaction we would have seen more positive change come to the team immediately. You can tell by the reaction of Jimmy Haslam III he is less than satisfied when the team doesn’t do well. The problme is he said he would make many changes until after the season ends. Jimmy Haslam III faces a boat load of challenges Leon. He has to rebuild the reputation of the Cleveland Browns Franchise as a team players would like to play for, right now the team has been voted the worse franchise to play for in the NFL by the players. I can imagine this came from the mistreatment of good players that have been treated poorly by the franchise in the past. Example Lawrence Vickers, after 6 years playing for the team they didn’t even offer him a new contract that is why Vickers ended up in Houston and now Dallas. Vickers was the work-horse of the Browns running game and special teams while he was here. When you treat players that gave their all for your team that way, you statrt to get a bad reputation and these are a few of the reasons why the Browns don’t get big time free agents, They don’t want to pay in Cleveland.

          So not only does Haslam have to rebuild the teams leadership he has to reconstruct the team reputation too. He is a guy that will be able to do it. HE has deep pockets and he seems to understand how important the Cleveland Browns are to a community too. IF you look around the city for the past several years very few players actually go out and get involved for the good of things that too is about to change under Jimmy Haslam….

           
          • ABrown

            Very well-written and insightful analysis, LG. Bravo!!

             
          • LG

            Thanks ABrown…I try

             
    • ABrown

      Leon, where on earth did this come from?

      You said, “Why defend my academic credentials to someone who already posted (I believe it was last week) in a derisive manner that (to paraphrase) – if I was an academic I must be a social scientist?”

      I NEVER in a million years ever said that. It’s you who keeps saying you are a social scientist, an academic, and a college professor, over and over again.

      I was simply curious today about what field within the social sciences you specialize in. I could understand, if you teach in the Cleveland area, that you might not want your students to read your posts, if they know you as Leon.

      But I can’t understand why you get so defensive about talking about your specialty or your graduate school. When academics meet, this is a standard subject.

      So apparently you don’t want to talk about your field, just that you teach in college and are an academic and social scientist.

      I learned something important when I took time off, 25 years ago, to open a nightclub and manage it. I was surprised to find that people outside of academia were a lot more impressed that I ran a nightclub than that I had been a professor at the state university.

      And this discovery fit really well with what my graduate professors at Texas used to joke with us about to keep us from being too full of ourselves as “academics”.

      There was one joke about the professor who always insisted on being called “Dr. Jones”. He flew to New York for a conference with “Dr. Jones” all over his luggage.

      Meanwhile, the mob had an important guy with a gunshot wound and needed a doctor bad enough to kidnap one from the airport. They saw his luggage and grabbed the academic.

      When they took him to the mob boss and he was told to take out the bullet, he replied indignantly, “I’m not THAT kind of doctor. I’m one of the nations finest specialists in 18th Century Literature!”

      The mob had absolutely no use for him, so they shot him.

      Being an academic is not very important in posting to an NFL discussion. What is important for all of us is to not take ourselves too seriously.

      Have a good weekend.

       
      • Tom Wynne

        didn’t know we had to post resumes to post(LOL)…this is a football thing with a bit of needling and fun…LET”S NOT GET ALL UP IN EVERYONE’S FACE just because we can’t agree on what the browns should or shouldn’t do. Maybe there are no answers and just good debate. Maybe the browns won’t win a Superbowl until they move to ANOTHER CITY!!!

         
        • LG

          You’re right Tom Wynne all except the moving part…..We don’t want to see that again….

           
      • Leon II

        ABrown it would appear that you are attempting to extend an olive branch and I will attempt to do the same.

        My whole revealing my profession started over a week ago in a discussion when LG insinuated I didn’t understand psychology and “nicely” referred to me as a dumb ass. Since then the statement has taken on a life of its own. Frankly, I find most academics to be pompous and boring and seldom use the titles I’m entitled to.

        I have been reluctant to reveal to many details of my personal life because 1) I did so once on a social site 10 years ago and an individual tracked me down and made my life miserable, and 2) the institution (not in Cleveland) I work at prohibits it’s faculty from stating an association with it when making public statements in non-academic sources. A faculty member made some politically incorrect comments in a local newspaper editorial about 6 years ago signing off with both their name and employment which caused a huge public relations gaffe.

        I will reveal this much. When I was active in research my fields were Archaeology, Biological Anthropology, and Geomorphology. About fifteen years ago I decided the high demands of a publish or perish existence wasn’t conducive to my new status of being a sole, not just single, parent of a ten year old. Since then I have been employed as a professor of Anthropology, Sociology and Religious Studies (additional areas of expertise I picked up along the way) at a teaching focused institution. I think that is sufficient while still being vague enough to not violate my contract of employment or allow someone to identify me personally.

        For me professional football, specifically the Browns, is a passion. It is the only sport I have a passion for and I follow the Browns, the AFCN, the AFC, and the NFL (in that order) year round. It is not only my entertainment but it allows me to engage my research passions. If I don’t know the answer to a fact involving the Browns past or present, I likely have it in one of my databases, or know which website the answer can be found on. I am proud of my knowledge and like you frankly rather fond of my intelligence.

        And yes I get touchy when someone makes a thinly or not so thinly veiled personal attacks, responding in a condescending or belittling manner, or misrepresents my positions (I’m not a Weeden apologist and I don’t think he should have started this season but I just keep hoping he might, just might pan out, and we didn’t completely waste a 22nd pick on him). Whether you realize it or not ABrown you frequently do this to others even when their posts do not warrant it. I have been following LG’s stories, along with my daily perusal of other major and minor sites, and finally decided to start posting here because of the depth of knowledge displayed by yourself and others instead of the typical “he sucks” comments on other sites. I will admit though that having watched how you and LG tend to treat others I was already predisposed to react sarcastically towards you when I felt personally attacked by you.

        I hope you have a good weekend as well and that maybe both of us will step back and read what the other is saying more carefully so we debate them on the merits and not knee jerk reactions.

         
        • ABrown

          Leon, thanks for your response. We both got off on the wrong foot and formed impressions of each other that just made things worse.

          Your research areas are fascinating and impressive. My graduate degrees are in English with a specialization in Renaissance Lit that I spread out into interdisciplinary areas in my dissertation, but even in graduate school I began being fascinated by what made students, people in general, learn and process information differently.

          I committed the ultimate English Dept heresy and moved into a specialty in composition and learning theory, created a lot of innovative materials and programs, and did the messy research with human subjects.

          I shifted more and more toward teaching and away from the brightest grad students to the students who didn’t know they were bright at all. They represented the questions I wanted to answer.

          The most rewarding thing I ever did as a teacher was help people discover their intelligence and learn how to enrich their lives and succeed even in traditional school settings where they would normally be condemned to fail, that and helping other teachers do the same thing.

          After a couple of years in retirement raising Angus cattle, I started volunteering in a local prison to work with unmotivated and learning disabled GED students and turn a lot of them into dedicated lifetime readers and learners.

          The best thing about having a Ph.D is learning how to learn and master new subjects, ask new questions, not put Dr so-and-so on my luggage.

          A lot of my comments that may come across as sarcastic are just making fun of myself, like the “fond of my intelligence” comment. I was laughing at myself with that one.

          I do get angry when I see what looks like unjustified criticism of Colt McCoy, other people I agree with, or attacks against LG when he is working very hard to come up with stimulating discussion points and not making money from it, yet, and maybe never. I get angry, too, if I feel attacked.

          Let’s agree to disagree when we do and put this unpleasantness aside and start over.

           
          • LG

            Hey it is just like Brandon Weeden, he gets off on the wrong foot each time he takes a snap…..It is all god here on the Cleveland Sports 360 discussion page…..

             
          • Tom Wynne

            Sunday morning. Thinking the Browns have a chance to win on the road…but somehow seeing a bad vision of Sebastian Janikowski booting our asses away…so I’m reading about academic credentials of some of our contributors this morning…and a big smile comes to my face. For all practical purposes, we could all be Harvard cum laude graduates…but we are BROWN’S fans…how smart CAN we be(LOL)

             
    • Bob

      Leon II – In case I missed something and I apologize if I did, but the first sentence you wrote in response to this article was: “Really ABrown, you need to start expand your reading beyond LG’s constant rants against Weeden. ” As far as I see it you got under ABrown’s skin first with the insult, “start expand your reading beyond LG’s constant rants.” Plus, you also insulted LG.

      Then you wrote here: “To ABrown. Yet again you adopt an arrogant, sarcastic, belittling, condescending tone that lacks a true response to the point I raised.” Really? I guess I don’t hear what you hear in regards to ABrown’s comments. I see ABrown defending herself more to insults and backing her opinion with stats and or facts. I guess I interpreted differently then you did, but others may think differently then me. With that being said, don’t you think saying out of the gate “… expand your reading… ” could be taken to some as a bit “arrogant, sarcastic, belittling, condescending tone” ?

      Pot, kettle, thing going on here in my opinion. Here’s the downfall to the written word over the spoken word and you said it, TONE. We really don’t know each other’s tone and that’s important to realize when responding in blogs. I can tell you my tone is not argumentative, but I will give it back when someone insults me and calls me names that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. One guy here called me retarded over a month ago in regards to my opinion, which in my opinion just showed his immaturity and showed he was not a good debater or writer. To this day, I usually just skip his post because he usually backs his beliefs with insults, delusions and distorted facts.

      Also, I don’t know why you had to keep writing about your academic background down. To me it felt arrogant and had this “I know better then the rest of you because I am a professor social scientist.” But when you write, “To ABrown. Yet again you adopt an arrogant, sarcastic, belittling, condescending tone that lacks a true response to the point I raised” AND then do exactly what you accuse someone else of doing, your opinions become less valued. Leon, you have some good points and some points that I disagree with. I don’t think you need to muttle things up with the name calling because you are just going to cause people to skip your responses.

      I bet most of the people here are really nice, passionate people who just want to voice their opinion and want to see if others are thinking like them about football, which is just a game. I see responding to this blog as fun and should not be stressful. Just saying.

      I apologize for this response being long.

       
  26. RB

    I don’t remember if Hillis ran 3 straight or not, but I didn’t blame McCoy for the loss. That’s the difference. It’s a team win or a team loss – not a McCoy win or loss and not a Weeden win or loss. It’s about a team.

    Just like most other sports – TEAM.

    LeBron James didn’t win the NBA Championship, the Miami Heat did – James was just a part of the TEAM who contributed.

     
    • LG

      RB when you have a Q.B. who is suppose to have great accuracy and he constantly misses on key passes to convert third downs then it becomes his problem and if you watch the Browns you would see Weeden missed key chances over and over again. He has no heart to be a champion…

       
      • Leon II

        LG we both agree that Weeden was over-hyped and there was nothing to indicate he could be an elite starter as a rookie, shouldn’t have been drafted at 22, named starter without a fair QB competition, and shouldn’t have started this season. What we disagree on is the issue of his mental fortitude, “heart”, which I agree with you can’t be taught but it can be damaged and even destroyed. We also disagree on whether he should be proclaimed a bust now and benched for good or not.

        You believe he never had “heart” while I think he had enough to be successful and that with appropriate development and coaching he may, and I stress may, have been successful in the NFL. I believe that if Weeden ultimately proves to be a bust the fault lays more on Shurmur’s starting him too soon, his rigid approach to the WCO, refusal to adapt it to his player’s strengths, his cumbersome and confusing play calling system, poor play calling and clock management, etc. which has been damaging to Weeden’s development. To be successfully developed a rookie QB has to play in a solid system for a good coach who knows how to develop young players, some need more coaching than others, or their mental fortitude is crushed (especially true of QBs). I believe Shurmur is crushing Weeden and I will concede that too much damage may have already been done.

         
        • LG

          Leon, I judge Weeden mentally on his failed M.L.B. career, he showed he wasn’t mentally tough enough to make it in baseball. He made all kinds of excuses as to why. If you research it you will find out he blamed everything thing on everything but himself. Weeden is not tough enough to be a long term solution to the Browns Q.B. position. Leon all you have to do is watch the games. He can’t take a hit and when he does he looks like he is shocked it happened. He is going to get hit hard one of these days and he will crack under the pressure more so than he already does Only time will tell Leon. I have been fortunate to be able to look at someone and get a feel for what a person is capable of doing all my life. I feel that Weeden is not capable in becoming a elite NFL Q.B.. Don’t get me wrong, Weeden has a ton of athletic ability, he just doesn’t have the one thing one needs to make it as an elite N.F.L. quarterback. Only time will tell and if I am wrong I will be the first to write an article saying I am wrong. At this point I really don’t think so….

           
          • Bob

            Agreed. I judge him on not having heart because of his excuses, throwing people under the bus. his lack of movement with his feet and ability of practically curling up in a ball before a defenseman touches him and lack of getting the team excited on the sidelines. The way he handles the media and his “all about me” attitude is shown over and over in his media blunders. He usually will not admit fault until a day later after he declared he was great and his blunder was pointed out. This is not how a leader should act and it is not on the path of getting respect from teammates and coaches.

            The more I see this behavior as the season goes on, the more I compared him to what Colt brought to the team and that was leadership and exciting play when he got protection and when his throws were caught. McCoy rushes for yards and does what it takes to move down the field in especially clutch situations. That’s exciting and motivating for fans & the team.

            Not once did McCoy every call Shurmer out in the media for his play calling, not once did he call Little out for dropping passes, Hillis for his behavior or the OL for only giving him 1.9 sec of protection. That lack of protection that Marty brings up is key to what happened to McCoy last year.

             
          • Leon II

            Well LG I have to concede you may be right. Like you I’m pretty good at reading a person and their has been something in Weeden’s eyes even in college that has bothered me about him. I just don’t see the same “scrappiness” that McCoy’s eyes show (the same as we see in Brees, Brady, Rodgers, etc. and even in those of Matt Cassel who has “it” just probably not the skill level to be a starter). I just keep hoping I’m wrong because if he doesn’t we are potentially screwed next season as well. I know McCoy looked better in the preseason (I’m not blind as you once accused) but the preseason isn’t the regular season when starting defenses are going all out. Don’t get me wrong I’m a McCoy fan and at worst he will have a long and successful career as a back-up. I just worry he doesn’t have the physical abilities to be a truly elite NFL QB.

             
          • LG

            Leon, I don’t think we are wrong. I also think it isn’t about who is a McCoy fan or who is a Weeden fan. I think it is about what is going to give the Cleveland Browns the very best chance at winning.It is Hilarious how many are so quick to jump on the Weeden band wagon because he threw a few long passes that that turned into large plays. There is a lot more to winning on a consistent level than that and the people who are blinded by a few shades of glory miss the big picture. You are totally correct in what you stated you see in Weeden’s eyes. You are right the missing link is just not there…You are born with it and if he was born with it he would have been pitching in Major league Baseball…

             
          • Tom Wynne

            can’t figure out the comment “if Brandon Weeden has what it takes…he’d be pitching in MLB”…I wonder how many other current NFL QB could consistently throw 92+ MPH fastballs. Now just because Eli, Peyton, Brees couldn’t make it in MLB…does that mean they similarly DON’T have what it takes to be NFL QBs??? The point i am making is that the baseball/football comparison as it applies to Brandon Weeden is illogical…only a small % of guys drafted in baseball actually ever get to the big club. So you are saying everyone in A, AA, AAA is a failure i suppose…

             
          • LG

            Not at all, simply talking about Weeden here in the article. You take any meaning from it you would like you are going to do that anyway…..

             
  27. marty

    LG, My son replied to weedon being a sissy. He has season tickets and is digusted with the browns the past three seasons. We talk alot except about the browns. He thinks weedon is the best thing since ice cream was invented.So the browns are never dicussed. The rainy weather will favor the browns.Richardson should have a good day. I think the passing day will suffer because of the field in Oakland.Again the game is going to be decided in the trenches. The only advantage oakland has is that we have shurmur as a coach and they can count on shurmur making a mistake.Did you ever notice weedon never can get the offense in rythym in pounding the ball. I never expected colt to start. For the same reasons you stated. I really didn’t think that the hit was hard at all. You can loosen up in his head that’s not there.

     
    • LG

      You are right Marty. it is also funny how so many can be conned into thinking Weeden is the man….A couple of big plays aren’t enough

       
      • Bob

        Leon & ABrown – I see the olive branch. Great!

         
  28. ABrown

    Maybe the strongest demonstration that Weeden isn’t tough enough — physically or mentally — to succeed in the NFL is the kind of defense of him Leon just laid out.

    Poor Weeden is being crushed playing for Shurmur, his mental fortitude may already by destroyed. Poor Weeden.

    But if anyone has been put in a crushing situation starting out in the NFL, it is Colt McCoy. Weeden has been pampered by comparison.

    But nobody thinks that McCoy has been crushed or had his mental fortitude diminished because McCoy is too tough and too mentally and physically strong to be crushed.

    Football is a rough game. Playing QB in the NFL may take the greatest toughness of all. But the Brown’s drafted and started the one quarterback who had more questions about his toughness coming into the NFL than anyone I can remember.

    Weeden’s issues were no secret coming out of college — college scouting reports, draft evaluations, his performance at the Senior Bowl when he looked great in practice but wilted under the pressure of the game. Most teams saw that lack of mental toughness as a clear sign Weeden couldn’t handle the pressure of starting at QB in the NFL and crossed him off their lists.

    But not the Browns. . . Now we not only have a head coach who can’t handle the job, but a quarterback who can’t either.

    That’s incredibly frustrating to a whole lot of fans. It must be even worse for the players.

     
    • Bob

      Nice way to sum it all up.

       
    • Leon II

      I agree ABrown that McCoy has faced enough adversity to crush most players. I also agree that Weeden has been pretty much pampered in comparison.

      If my previous statement came across as a “Poor Weeden” statement then I wasn’t clear enough. I’m still sitting on the fence as to whether Weeden could succeed in the NFL as an AVERAGE QB at best. I have never thought he could win a Super Bowl but at best could be an adequate QB who might be able to eventually lead a team to the playoffs. I think Weeden only could have achieved that status with the correct development and coaching. Neither of those in my opinion included him starting this year or playing for Shurmur.

      It wasn’t meant to be a defense of Weeden but rather an admonishment of Shurmur. I also place the majority of the blame for McCoy’s struggles last year on Shurmur. I think in two years of coaching the Browns he has shown that at this time he is incapable of coaching a team to a winning season and developing offensive play makers. I have also become concerned that Mark Whipple isn’t as good as his reputation. He was supposed to be this guru QB coach due to his work with Roethlisberger in his rookie season but so far I’m not seeing it.

      I hope that clarifies my position.

       
      • ABrown

        Leon, sorry about the sarcasm that may have come across with the “poor Weeden” comment. I was trying to transition to a point I wanted to make about Weeden and one of the reactions he tends to get in contrast to McCoy.

        You’re right about Shurmur. He is the HUGE problem here, and remember, too, that he did a lot to mess up Sam Bradford before coming to Cleveland. The Eagles probably gave him a job because of his uncle, but they never promoted him in over 10 years. No other team should have promoted him either.

         
        • Leon II

          Yes Shurmur’s coaching history worried me from square one. He did get a slight bump going from tight end coach to QB coach at the end of his second year with the Eagles but after that his career stagnated for the next seven. Once he finally got his second bump, becoming OC for the Rams, I thought he was given too much credit for the turn around from 09 to 2010. I’m always wary of “one hit wonders”. I think to be ordained as HC worthy you have to show the ability to sustain the momentum.

          My opinion is that Shurmur is the true white elephant in the room.

           
          • Bob

            Good post Leon!

             
  29. Bob

    Congrats LG with the 125+ comments. Nice following.

     
  30. bob

    “sissy” I saw the “sissy” get blasted all day long by the Raiders.The “sissy” got back up every time.This article is idiotic.

     
    • LG

      It was about time he showed he had some balls to take some hits…

       
      • bob

        You just dont start showing you have balls.That is something you have or you dont.Just stop

         
    • ABrown

      bob, the article addresses a real concern. You can’t make it “idiotic” with a misguided post.

      I think all people, even “sissies”, will fight for something that is really important to them, when they feel their backs are against the wall.

      I don’t think Weeden will ever care that much about winning or about his team mates to hang in against pressure.

      But recently, Weeden has realized that his job and his future are on the line, and that McCoy will come in and win a tough game in a heartbeat, if Weeden falls down and curls up in a ball.

      Self interest is a great motivator.

       
      • Tom Wynne

        might be the silliest “sissy” analysis ever…by far the weirdest thing I’ve read so far. Shaking my head…

         
        • ABrown

          Tom, I shake my head every time I read your posts. But the truly weirdest thing is having a QB that every other team in the league thinks is a sissy but having a few Cleveland homies convinced he’s the next elite quarterback.

           
          • Tom Wynne

            Conratulations to Mr. Weeden joining the 3000 yard club and getting his 5th rookie win(1 more than everybody’s messiah Mr. Kosar did)…just give him time!!!

             

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